Hitler's sanity

[nonconformist]

Well yes it can. I read just yesterday, when Hitler was in hospital after being wounded in a poison gas attack, he presumably lost his eye vision temporarily. It was a common symptom among gas victims, but his doctor's diagnosis was that Hitler lost his eye vision more likely due to his strongly hysteric state. Moreover the doctor's opinion was that he was probably a psychopath! He was probably the first one to say so.

Would that be Stumpfegger?

Hitler wasn't IMHO insane, but delusional, and pretty prejudiced.

People like Heinrich Himmler, the prince of terror, who was a functionary, a beaurocrat, while being a tool for terror, and mass murder, possibly then one who has the most to answer to in terms of Genocide, I would consider insane. Sociopathic, delusional, and takiing utmost pleasure in his job.

The utmost tribute to Himmler's insanity would be what happened in the dying days of the Reich; Himmler thought that the Western Allies would actually want to negotiate with him. He was so delusional that he thought that Eisenhower would not only negotiate with him, but also allow him to set up a new government, with him in a priminant position.
Himmler actually rote a formal letter to Eisenhower, formally requesting as job as chief of security in the post-Nazi government.
One of his underlings also recorded that in the very last days of the Reich, he asked one of them "When I meet Eisenhower, should I shake his hand, or do the Nazi salute?"


Goering too, but lesser.
Mostly because he was delusional in terms of what he could achieve, has a grossly inflated self worth, and I believe he was a serial adulterer, and a morphine addict from the days of Munich. However, he could about see when the war was lost, and he happened to claim himself as Fuhrer, enfuriating Hitler who ordered him shot.
At Nuremberg, he considered himself guilty, yet innocent; he had done those things, but no harm done.
He also assumed that he, as Reichmarschall, should be the superior to all the other Nuremberg defendents, and went around his pompous self, and everyone else just mocked him.
He gave long, long diatribes making him sound pseudo-intelligent, and he topped himself when he knew he was being hung.

Goebbels was a throughtly nasty little man, also insane.
He was Hitler's poodle, answering his every whim.
The very thought of a world without National Socialism was horrific to him.
He was a short, un-aryan, spindly little man with a limp, and no honours to his name, with a serious need to overcompensate.
He was sick enough to invite his wife and seven children into the Reichsbunker in the last days, poison each of his seven childrenb as they slept with cyanide, then he shot his wife and himself, as a suicude pact between the parents.

However, I think most Nazi officials weren't insane. People like Eichmann certainly weren't, and there's a fair amount of evidence to support it.

 

[Disgustipated]

perfectly sane. Paranoid and sociopath- yes.

And I don't think he was any kind of genius. He lost after all. I think anyone who had the motivation could have taken all of Europe. When he faced serious opposition, he lost. Running over Poland doesn't impress me. Neither does overrunning France.

 

[nonconformist]

perfectly sane. Paranoid and sociopath- yes.

And I don't think he was any kind of genius. He lost after all. I think anyone who had the motivation could have taken all of Europe. When he faced serious opposition, he lost. Running over Poland doesn't impress me. Neither does overrunning France.

Conquering France in a month was quite a feat considering the presence of the Maginot line, the fanaticism with which the French fought the Germans with (and their sacrificing themselves to save the Brits at Dunkerque), and that the French had (arguably) the best tanks in the world at the time.

 

[Ukas]

I think no one can take Disgustipated's comment very seriously.

 

[Che Guava]

I heard that in his later years his doctors were perscribing cocaine to him as painkillers, along with a myriad of other uppers and downers to keep him regulated. So whether or not he was insane before, he would have certainly been twice as paranoid of the world around him by the last couple of years of the war...

 

[nonconformist]

I heard that in his later years his doctors were perscribing cocaine to him as painkillers, along with a myriad of other uppers and downers to keep him regulated. So whether or not he was insane before, he would have certainly been twice as paranoid of the world around him by the last couple of years of the war...

Stumpfegger gave Hitler a daily cocaine eye-drop.

It's also very possible his brain was ravaged by untreated syphilis, possibly caught during the first war.

 

[Ukas]

Stumpfegger was Hitler's last doctor, not the one I talked about, who treated him in 1918. Btw, also Dr. Theodor Morell, who treated Hitler longer, gave him interesting drugs.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Reminds me of this old urban legend I'd heard. It went like this: Hitler's mother had considered an abortion, but her doctor talked her out of it.

Also, I don't know if any of you have caught it but History Channel has shown a few shows on Hitler's sanity. Some theories shown suggesting that he suffered from an oedipus complex, but I highly doubt that.

Evil? No. Crazy? More than likely. A painter? Now -that's- a discussion.

 

[Adler17]

Well, there is a discussion here about his paintings. At least his buildings were good, but he had massive problems with persons.

Adler

 

[The Almighty dF]

Indeed.

"*painting* Ack! I cannot get the tree in there-GAH! I shall kill everyone!"

 

[Idlenessss]

In my own readings of Hitler and his biography, I think he is very misrepresented. This should obvious of course, a person like Hitler will ALWAYS be misrepresented.
Im not goign to write a whole research paper here or anything.
To summarize my take on Hitler, Ithink he didnt care one bit about jews, was not himself genuinely racist in anyway, excepting perhaps the sort of hatred that you get from apathy. It was all a facade for him, a game, and he was trying from the very beginnign of the beer putsch to simply commit suicide, or FORCE someone to kill him. I think he was suprised himself at how long he lived, and how much absurd things he managed to get away with... Just like, when you genuinely dont care about life anymore, might as well see how crazy you can make it.

his father used to beat him and he felt deep affection for his moter and was traumastised by her death when he was resonably young. I should point out at this point hitler was utliamutely not responsible for the way the Jews and other "inferior" races, he left it to the leader of the ss.

Both of these contradict what I remember reading. His father was simply absent. Hitler was very specific about how he wanted jews to be treated. The SS did not have autonomy. Hitler even made effort to ensure that, especially the SA forerunner to the SS was composed of genuinely psychotic people so that they would be more likely to do horrible things.

 

[Plotinus]

To summarize my take on Hitler, Ithink he didnt care one bit about jews, was not himself genuinely racist in anyway, excepting perhaps the sort of hatred that you get from apathy. It was all a facade for him, a game, and he was trying from the very beginnign of the beer putsch to simply commit suicide, or FORCE someone to kill him. I think he was suprised himself at how long he lived, and how much absurd things he managed to get away with... Just like, when you genuinely dont care about life anymore, might as well see how crazy you can make it.

What evidence could you possibly have to back up a claim like that?

 

[Idlenessss]

What evidence could you possibly have to back up a claim like that?

Well like I said, i cant write a whole research paper here. I would only point out certain things that i think are key in understanding the mind of Hitler.
First of all, his racism was not a gradual thing. He was not racist for many years, he was just a rather eccentric guy who lived in squalor , and had ambitions to become an artist.
He suddenly, out of the blue, decided to eb racist, and just as suddenly, decided to be outspoken about it. ok? And it was inspired by listening to a lecture, and probably feeling the audience reaction to it. He was recently annoyed by Vaugner's granddaughter dating an older jewish guy, obviously for the money.
Following the event at this lecture, he was immediately welcomed into a sort of society, a place he could finially belong. So he kinda took it and ran with it.

The beer pustch, the victoms themselves reported that he forced them at gunpoint to support him. And if they did not he woudl kill them, AND himself...

They supported him.

He was arrested, and this became a very fantastic public trial...where he most certainly expected to be executed for treason (who wouldnt)

But instead he was simply let go....

So, as difficult as it may seem, if you try to put yourself in his position...and read his biography closely, I tihnk you can actually find many examples that would give you the picture of him that I have.

There is a really great movie with john cusak about hitler, called 'max'. I definately recomend it. It has some literary embellishings of actual history, however, it does show a picture of Hitler that I think is closer to the truth, and more real, and fightning, than the mainstream mind-numbing simplification of him.

Lets remember that Hitler was a phenomenon which occured in a Republic...Much like the one in modern day US, where noone could imagine the fascist state it became, only a few years prior.

Here, let me put forth this other point:
The guy knew human nature. In fact he was really amazing at this. This is why he was both such an outstanding public speaker, and political manipulator. He knew exactly what people would do, before even they did. He knew exactly what to tell the world, so they wouldnt abort him while he was weak. And i would suggest that a person who was so adept at empathy, and knew people so well, can NOT have a foolish, simple view such as the 'superiority of the Aryan race'. Think about it. the guy KNEW that his underlings were insane....and he KNEW thats what made them PERFECT for their job. the guy KNEW how to manipulate the masses with a lie. So thats what he did. plain and simple.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Honestly, I too had a theory that he didn't personally hate the Jews.
I think he was just a politician, and politicans will use any means to rally the people in their favor. You take an enemy (the Jews were already hated in Europe, but were especially hated in Germany after WW1 for various reasons, same for gypsies but gypsies have always been hated.)
If the Germans were angry at squirrels, my god Hitler would have ranted about how he had plans to coat all the acorns and nuts in the area with poison.

 

[Adler17]

The Jews were not hated especially in Germany. Except in Austria and perhaps Bavaria. However in school times we read Macbeth by Shakespeare in English. We characterized him, Hitler and Stalin as people believing only at the momentum. All later or earlier is irrelevant. The main point is this passage:

Posted by William Shakespeare

Macbeth V, v, 19

Macbeth:
"...Tommorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
Creeps in this petty pace from day;
To the last syllable of recorded time.
All of our yesterdays have lighted fools;
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: It is a tale,
Told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury.
Signifying nothing."

Although this might be something different from the historical Macbeth, Shakespeare's as well as Hitler and Stalin were such nihilistic people. They were quasi running amok. And wondered themselves how far they came. It is no must Hitler was hating Jews himself. However at a certain point he must have started to believe his own propaganda. Or he played the show until the very end. If it was not so tragical, you could say, he deserved an Oscar! But that does not exclude that he became insane later.

Adler

 

[The Almighty dF]

Are you sure about that? I'd always heard that the Jews had been especially hated after WW1 for various reasons including many of the people who still had plenty of money were Jewish.

Also, I can't see Hitler as much of a nihilist. It's known he was deeply religious, a Christian though not one that fits into any popular from of Christianity. Stalin, yes. Then again, maybe he was deeply religious in his personal life -because- of his nihilism.

This is the downside to people like Hitler. There just isn't enough out there that is about anything but what we deem evil. The few sources we even cite are usually heavilly biased. I'm sure anyone who has attempted to research the current world enemy, Osama bin Laden, has discovered that.

Also, neat how William Shakespeare posted here once. Wonder what civ he used to play as. Could see him as Hatty.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I would consider insane. Sociopathic, delusional, and takiing utmost pleasure in his job.

Himmler vomited at the site of an execution. He didn't do it because of a flaw in his brain, he did it because of the Nazi ideology.

The utmost tribute to Himmler's insanity would be what happened in the dying days of the Reich; Himmler thought that the Western Allies would actually want to negotiate with him. He was so delusional that he thought that Eisenhower would not only negotiate with him, but also allow him to set up a new government, with him in a priminant position.

Having unrealistic expectations is not a sign of insanity, Hjalmar Schacht thought the British should make Germany a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Germany. Doesn't make him insane.

 

[brachy-pride]

Ideas about the "nordic race" being superior were not only of lunatics, they were quite mainstream back then, before world war 2 in comparison to current times, almost all people were racists, european anthropologists would say the msot outrageous things before world war 2, and it was considered mainstream science, not lunacy.

I have a few books from the early XX century and XIX century (not by nazis, by normal people, travelers etc), and europeans back then would say the most outrageous things (which werent outrageous back then)

 

[nonconformist]

Himmler vomited at the site of an execution. He didn't do it because of a flaw in his brain, he did it because of the Nazi ideology.

Like I said, Himmler was a desk jockey. The pleasure he took was not physical, but rather mental, knowing he'd done a job right.
Hitler was different, however, and the Gestapo filme footage ofthe July plotters being tortured and executed especially for him.

Having unrealistic expectations is not a sign of insanity, Hjalmar Schacht thought the British should make Germany a part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Germany. Doesn't make him insane.

It doesn't, you're right, but it depends on the exact circumstaces.
When exactly did Schacht believe that?
In the early 20s, it wouldn;t have been entirely inconceivable, as the UK and Germany shared many cultrual and historical parallels.
But form Himmler to muder 12 million people, then not only expect to be able to meet Eisenhower, but to actually be invited to the psot war government is mind boggling.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Like I said, Himmler was a desk jockey. The pleasure he took was not physical, but rather mental, knowing he'd done a job right.

Which doesn't inherently make him insane. It makes him an evil son of a *****, but until you show me that Himmler couldn't understand the concept of why killing people is wrong, your not showing that he was insane in the least. Keep in mind, if you truly believe the man to be insane, that means you shouldn't punish him, and shouldn't blame him. If hes insane that means he had no control of his actions, Himmler certainly did.

It doesn't, you're right, but it depends on the exact circumstaces.
When exactly did Schacht believe that?
In the early 20s, it wouldn;t have been entirely inconceivable, as the UK and Germany shared many cultrual and historical parallels.

This was in 1946.

But form Himmler to muder 12 million people, then not only expect to be able to meet Eisenhower, but to actually be invited to the psot war government is mind boggling.

Hubris has yet to be DSM-IV recognized however.