HOF III August Gauntlet

[Calis]

I like that a lot better than Spoonwood's suggestion.

Oh, forgive him. He's just an old bragger.

But then again, he is the number 1 quartermaster.

 

[Naok]

Some questions from a new user of MapFinder related to this HOF game.

I just discovered the HOF two weeks ago and thought I should have a try on it, especially on a Regent level and a small map. So I download MapFinder. After reading this topic and some others about Spaceship, I understood that at the starting position I would need +5Food, river and a hut (in order to get a settler) to have a chance to get in the HOF table.

My settings : Sumeria with Ottoman, Persia, Babylon, Germany and Russia as opponents. Sedentary barbs, normal/wet and 5 billions.

After living my computer three time the whole day, I got around 120 maps from MapFinder.
- From those maps, when the hut was in the 9 squares around capital, I never gor a settler directly. 1. So here come the 1. question : is it possible to get a settler from a hut right at the begining, i.e. at 4000BC ?
- From the 120 maps, I got five times a settler around 3700/3800BC. 2. question : is it the normal average ?
- From those 5 maps with settler, I played 2 and didnt get a SGL in the AA. 3. question : how long should I wait to get a SGL or abandon the game ? 4. question : Do you just search for 2/3 techs and if no SGL you abandon or do you play the whole AA waiting for one ?
- I am now playing the third and still have 2 left. I hope to have a bit more chance with those because it starts to take the fun of playing Civ3 away.
- Then about the techs, I go for Alphabet>Writing>CoL>Philo>Republic. When I read from Ignas that after searching CB, then Writing>CoL>Philo>Republic and "Traded or popped all other technologies", I just asked myself 5. question : how the hell do you do this ? The others civs I play against are just too slow to be any usefull for trading except for 4 or 5 techs.

And if you fill like giving any other advices I will be very happy to read it.

Thanks a lot

 

[Tone]

Welcome, Naok.

My thoughts on your questions/comments:

I understood that at the starting position I would need +5Food, river

+4 food is sufficient with Sumeria as their traits give +1 food. I prefer a river grass cow rather than wheat or game for the extra shield-2 grass cows with Sumeria should enable your first two cities to pump out settlers and workers.

is it possible to get a settler from a hut right at the begining, i.e. at 4000BC ?

I'm afraid not. You cannot pop a settler if you have one in play (which you will do if you haven't built your capital) and you cannot pop a settler if you have more than the average number of cities per civ (which you will if you build your capital first). See here for goody hut probability article.

how long should I wait to get a SGL or abandon the game ?

I guess that is personal choice. To be highly competative a very early SGL is required to beat some of the top spots but as you say, constantly loading a new games every 20-30 turns...

...starts to take the fun of playing Civ3 away.

A great starting position is worth playing through IMO.

When I read from Ignas that after searching CB, then Writing>CoL>Philo>Republic and "Traded or popped all other technologies", I just asked myself 5. question : how the hell do you do this ? The others civs I play against are just too slow to be any usefull for trading except for 4 or 5 techs.

Maybe Ignas is better qualified to answer this but an expansionist civ can get to many huts first. Build a few scouts early on (much easier if you pop an early settler of course) and go exploring. I try to avoid popping huts until I've met my rivals and traded for the first tier techs. This is not too risky if the huts are not too close to them. I also hold back on huts when researching CoL as popping Philosophy can be *really* annoying at that stage. I have very little luck with non-exp civs with huts though.

 

[Naok]

Thanks a lot Tone. It already helps me understand better the early strategy.

To be highly competative a very early SGL ...

What is a very early SGL ... right after your first tech ? Or do you search for 2 or 3 techs ?
Then it will mean for Sumeria, I go for Alphabet and when I got it I should have pop a settler from a hut and a SGL from Alphabet ? .... otherwise I start again (always with the idea to be highly competative .... lets talk about fun another time ....)

A great starting position is worth playing through IMO.

Sorry but what is IMO ?

Three more questions :
- Is it a good idea to play against Russia in this game ? Because they get a lot of techs from the huts which decrease my chance to be first for a tech and therefore to get a SGL. It happens once I was searching CoL and when I met Russia they already had Philosophy .....
- As a non-expansionist civ what is a good date to enter MA ?
- For a spaceship vistory, the idea is to exchange techs a lot/ASAP to make the tech pace faster isn´t it ?

 

[superslug]

I usually avoid expansionist AI precisely so I can maybe become the tech leader/trader. As far as an SGL goes, if I don't get one after the Philo/freebie combo, I don't plan on one.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

IMO = in my opinion.

On regent, I would probably play without huts if I was hunting for an SGL, particularly if russia was in the game. You can't pop a settler on regent, anyway.

Getting all the other techs generally means the AA techs, of course. You should easily be able to trade for the 1st level techs, iron working, math, Map making (trade away writing as soon as you have CoL) and mysticism. Currency, construction and polytheism you can probably get from the AI - just make sure you trade around stuff like IW early, so the AI can focus on the other things.

I kind of want to remove my "you can't pop a settler on regent" remark, but it would make later posts seem funny. But ignore it - you definitely can pop one on regent.

 

[del62]

you can pop a settler on regent,

Main thing to remember is swicth any settler builds prior to hut popping

Here are some tricks with the Russians, set starting tech to the wheel for sgl possibilities full steam, pop huts till writing, the set for philosophy and dont complete till Code of Laws is popped, you will then have cash to spend as a republic, probably on libraries, on completing philo take republic, possibly set research to map making

I would probably start building a couple of scouts

 

[Tone]

What is a very early SGL ... right after your first tech ? Or do you search for 2 or 3 techs ?

Well it depends how competitive you want to be. Top end? First two techs. A shot at a pretty good time? First 6 techs. Just bear in mind that a really good starting position counts for a lot too. An early settler with a high commerce start (rivers, luxes, etc) will make me play a few techs more in search of the Pyramids building SGL.

Is it a good idea to play against Russia in this game?

No. If I wasn't playing with Russia, I'd certainly avoid them as a rival. In fact I'd avoid exp civs. You want the AI civs to complement your research but not steal those early SGL chances.

As a non-expansionist civ what is a good date to enter MA ?

To be honest I'm not sure. I'd be really happy with circa 1300BC but ignas is the man to beat with this game so let's hear what he has to say.

For a spaceship vistory, the idea is to exchange techs a lot/ASAP to make the tech pace faster isn´t it ?

Yes, but still defend your early SGL chances.

You can't pop a settler on regent, anyway

you can pop a settler on regent,

I agree with del62 on this one. Maybe you've been playing too much lately AT . Totally agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

yeah - I have no idea what I was thinking there. You can pop settlers at any level. In fact, I played a demigod SS game a few years ago where I popped 3

 

[Naok]

Thanks a lot for your answers especially Tone (I hope you have a bit more time ). It helps me to polish myvery early strategies. I still didn´t find a good enough map but I played several until end of AA to try some ideas. And here come some more thoughts and questions.

First I hope I am in the right place to ask such questions like I did, If anybody fills like I should write in another post, let me know.

Well it depends how competitive you want to be. Top end? ... A shot at a pretty good time?

... well to start I will be pretty happy with a shot at a pretty good time .....

Early settler
Like for the SGL, how long do you wait to pop a settler from a hut ? 3500BC ? Or am I too picky and better wait at leat until 3000BC?

Research
I go with maximun gold to CB and then Republic slighshot. As the AI search rate is so slow, I usually found myself in the position of giving (they have max 10 gold which is like a gift) several techs for free (like alphabet, writting, pottery, iron working, masonry and/or mathematics) to enable the AI to maybe search some techs for me. For sure, I take a lot care to ...

defend your early SGL chances.

By the end of the AA tech path, I am usually ahead and there is no more techs to exchange.
Am I on the right way so to ask ?

Republic
I almost always changed for Republic as soon as possible (I might wait a turn or two to finish something important). But I then have to slow down research or have money problems. I have a lot of workers (around 1,5 per town) and 5 or 6 Endiku warriors still scooting. So same question am I on the right way so to ask ? I was wondering if I should wait until expansion phase is over.

Wars
Can I expect any war decleration before the expansion phase is over ? And do you plan for some war ? To get some extra luxuries or ressources for instance ? Or just to get bigger maximinzing points ?

Buildings
What is your order buildings ? I though I should have libraries as a first building in most of my cities. And do you build baracks early or do you wait the end of the expansion phase ?

Money
One main consequence is that I don´t have any money when I go for Republic ASAP. Actually I have usually little money and I am making minus gpt (I really put research at the max from the beginning even if making a -1gpt for some turns). Once more I am not sure that I am on the right way because it might be good to rush some libraires. So should I put down research already from the beginning ? And then when it come to the 2/3 of the techs path in order to make "a lot" of money ?

GA
When do you plan this one ? By the end of the expansion phase to give a kick to put libraries everywhere ? Or do you wait that yours cities are a bit bigger and developped ?

Wahooooo it is a pretty long post. I hope I don´t discourage (is this english?) you to read it. Thanks in advance for any answer ......

 

[Tone]

Early settler
Like for the SGL, how long do you wait to pop a settler from a hut ? 3500BC ? Or am I too picky and better wait at leat until 3000BC?

I don't abandon a game if I don't get a settler; even though it can be a massive boost to your starting position.

Research
By the end of the AA tech path, I am usually ahead and there is no more techs to exchange.

can I just check that you are aware of the following:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90177

I almost always changed for Republic as soon as possible (I might wait a turn or two to finish something important). But I then have to slow down research or have money problems.

I take Republic asap too. Unit upkeep can be an issue so I might disband warriors rather than slow research. On money/research don't be fooled by your percentage research value-it's raw beakers that count. The extra commerce in Republic means that your beaker count might be much higher, even if your percentage rate is lower. Getting Republic means that you lose the Despot penalty as well so your food and production can also be a bit higher.

Can I expect any war decleration before the expansion phase is over ? And do you plan for some war ? To get some extra luxuries or ressources for instance ? Or just to get bigger maximinzing points ?

My main objective is date rather than score for this type of game. I keep the AI sweet with plenty of trade and gifts so a DoW is pretty rare. That's a good job as I'm usually not set up for any war at that stage. In the early game I'll steal resources via cultural expansion if possible or trade if not. War is my last option but it sometimes required. I just try to develop my core and spam flooded cities elsewhere for specialists.

What is your order buildings ? I though I should have libraries as a first building in most of my cities. And do you build baracks early or do you wait the end of the expansion phase ?

No barracks usually for a long time, although I might sometimes get one up for some unit production if I feel that I'm squeezing some rivals pretty hard for territory. For the core cities, libraries are a must for expanding borders as well as commerce. Markets, the odd harbour but mostly settlers and workers. Outside the core: libraries if culture is needed but otherwise just workers. My problem tends to be working out when to get markets and universities up in my core and stop settler production. That is usually helped by an early GA.

GA
When do you plan this one ? By the end of the expansion phase to give a kick to put libraries everywhere ? Or do you wait that yours cities are a bit bigger and developped ?

If I can choose it I'll take it straight after I've gone into Republic. The core can get key buildings completed whilst the semi-core can build settlers with the reduced corruption. Getting quick research (4 turn) is easier later on but difficult earlier in the game. You will have more cities benefiting with a late GA but an early GA will ensure that you get into a great position earlier.

 

[Naok]

Thanks Tone. You are very helpful.

can I just check that you are aware of the following:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90177

Yes, you can and you teached me something because I completly forgot about the Scientific Double Slingshot (I play with Sumeria). And I won´t anymore. It helps me for both research and money questions I had.

 

[Spoonwood]

I highly suggest turning down the aggression level to "least aggressive" for any HoF game. There may exist an exception or two where you want the AIs to have a higher aggression level, but not usually. That alone can usually keep the AIs off your back (though NOT on a Tiny Deity map, as I learned after several sneak attacks).

 

[Naok]

Ok Spoonwood. I put "Less Aggressive" and as I finally get a "not that bad" start I think I will try with this one.

I got a good starting position with 2 cattles (on plain and grassland), weat on plain and rivers. I pop a settler at 3800BC and found a lot of rivers, gold, luxuries, a cattle and a weat around for my core cities. I got a lot of chance with huts popping 5 or 6 techs (I almost feel like an expansionist civ.
I enter the MA at 950 BC (it is not 1300BC Tone was speaking about but I will give it a try). I did the Scientific Double Slingshot (thanks Tone).

I was wondering about wonders. What are the key wonders you want to build ? For the AA I go for Pyramids and Colossus. I though about the Statue of Zeus not to think about military anymore and for short war to get some extra luxuries. But maybe I don´t need. And for the MA. I guess Newton and Copernicus.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I was wondering about wonders. What are the key wonders you want to build ? For the AA I go for Pyramids and Colossus. I though about the Statue of Zeus not to think about military anymore and for short war to get some extra luxuries. But maybe I don´t need. And for the MA. I guess Newton and Copernicus.

As you said, Pyramids and Collossus are prime candidates for wonders. Ideally, in the case of these Ancient Age wonders you use Sci-leaders. Of the Middle Age wonders, yeah, Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's University.

The Theory of Evolution and the Internet are must-haves. But on Regent I would wait with the ToE until the Modern Age to complete it. Combined with the tech-trick you can manage to get 7 Modern Age techs right at the age change that way and immediately complete the Internet too. The thing is to have two pre-builds going, the first is for the ToE and the second for the Internet. For the ToE you have to pay attention that it comes earlier than the Internet in the order in which cities complete their builds. For the Internet you need to have a proper pre-build going and the only option is to use the palace. Make sure your empire is large enough for a 1000 shield palace.

But apart from those 6 wonders, there are really none which in and of themselves are interesting. The only thing would be to use a wonder as a Golden Age trigger, for instance Collossus and Mausoleum of Mausollos if you are Russian.

I though about the Statue of Zeus not to think about military anymore and for short war to get some extra luxuries. But maybe I don´t need.

You should rather use dedicated groups of workers to build trade-routes to your neighbors. And if necessary, do not just build a road to connect to the AI capital(s), but connect luxes for the AI too, so you can trade for them.

Something else you might want to do, is to send out galleys loaded with a settler and a worker along the coast in order to claim any luxes that are either right on the coast or just one tile in.

 

[Naok]

Something else you might want to do, is to send out galleys loaded with a settler and a worker along the coast in order to claim any luxes that are either right on the coast or just one tile in.

I though about this and already have 2 cities like those. It brings me another question : how many cities do you guys have for this small/regent/spaceship game ?

 

[del62]

On these games I lke the MoM in my capital, this is a fairly early cheap wonder in your capital, giving Tourist Income later and one of the two Golden Age wonders you need.

 

[Spoonwood]

I though about this and already have 2 cities like those. It brings me another question : how many cities do you guys have for this small/regent/spaceship game ?

Until you hit 4 turn research, can maintain it, and have all the luxuries, you don't have enough.

 

[superslug]

Had a really promising start that could have blown the pants off my previous wins, but some boneheaded moves stalled things and I accidently hit domination, so I just submitted as such. I think I still have time for one good game...

 

[Spoonwood]

Sounds similar to mine, CKS.

Sumeria. Finished 970AD. Early-ish SGL for Pyramids. Hardly any luxes but stole some through aggressive settling and traded for a couple more. Relatively low commerce in core but at least with the Pyramids and agri trait I could get decent specialist farms up earlier.

I don't remember getting anything but barbs from huts and I had to research Alphabet as I didn't meet Korea or Greece for ages. Needed some techs from huts to stand a chance of beating my own game, let alone getting anywhere near Ignas' game. Have I got time for another...?

Ignas said he might not have time to finish.

I just finished a game with Russia where I got a settler early and got an SGL on Mysticism after research Ceremonial Burial (no one seems to have it if I don't and meet them at this level, even with huts, so the CB SGL with huts seems probable "enough"). I put the Pyramids in my second city, and I had just happened to place it on a coast. I researched The Wheel I think next after Mysticism (to pop Writing). Then I put research at 10% for a while on Philosophy waiting to pop Code of Laws. I think I researched all of Polytheism, and then half of Construction until I found a hut, swapped to Monarchy, and luckily popped Construction.

Then the AIs got me all 3 first level middle age techs and I drew Theology! I put the Colossus in my city which had the Pyramids, after I built the Museum of Mausollos there, kicking off my GA in the middle ages. I only had 1 luxury in my empire for a while. And later on I only had 4 or 5 for a while. Consequently, when I first got to 4 turn research sometime in the middle ages I couldn't maintain throughout all of the middle ages. The AIs only got Steam and Medicine in the industrial ages, so I drew Nationalism. I didn't maintain 4 turn research for a bit. I think I went Industrialization-The Corporation-Electricity-Replacable Parts-Scientific Method-Steel-Refining-Combustion (I think here or on Refining I finally maintained 4 turn research)-Mass Production-Motorized Transportation-Atomic Theory-Electronics-Flight.

The AIs came through for me in the modern ages. I got all 4 first tier techs! I picked up Nuclear Power as my freebie, and used ToE for Miniaturization and Space Flight. I almost messed up using the Palace pre-build and ToE, as I had my second timed to finish the 1000 shield palace the same turn as I entered the modern ages, and my third city to build ToE. Instead, I overbuilt ToE with my first city, and then swapped my 2nd city to finish The Internet on the same turn as I entered the modern age (using "what's the big picture"). I had no problems with 4 turn research in the modern age, and even used the luxury slider a little here and there at the end.

I launched in 810 AD. Somewhere in the 700s at least seems achievable.

I meant to submit the following save with my game, but since I didn't, I'll put it here.