HOF Rules Discussion

[Moonsinger]

I simply cant imagine any case where you would want to use ICBMs in a HoF game thou...

I concur! IMO, if you are fighting with nukes, your score probably won't be high enough to be on the HoF anyway.

(perhaps for altering terrain types in vanilla (does it work in ptw too?) , but by then you would have rails anyway, so tactical nukes would be better to use for this)

It doesn't work in PTW or C3C! I did a lot terrain formatting with nukes in some of my games in the GOTM too; however, there is a seriously consequence...the sun will go red. Nothing you can do to reverse this global warming process! Cleaning up all pollutions in the same turn won't undo the damage and your entire world may turn into desert which it would reduce your highscore.

 

[Moonsinger]

in C3C.. since you cant join workers unless the city has enough food to support it.. to pull it off you would have to first let the city riot, then join all the workers.. then turn all into specialists, wait for next turn for city to stop riot, and then rush ICBM...

This brings up a couple another tactics/exploits that isnt listed in the rules.

1: Letting a city riot, then join tons of workers into the town and make them all scientists for insane research output.. you will only loose 1 worker per turn. The more workers you join the higher advantage you gain from it.

I see two disadvantages with this exploit!

#1. Where on earth would you get a tons of workers? Workers don't grow on tree, you know.

#2. There is a minimum of 4 turns to research a tech. If you have managed to generate that many workers in the first place, at this point, your civ should be able to research a new tech in every 4 turns anyway. Therefore, this exploit won't yield any advantage.

2: Tactical nukes are much cheaper than ICBMs, and can also nuke anywhere on map by pressing the keycombo 'g' followed by 'b'

IMO, such games won't score very high anyway; therefore, it probably won't make onto the HoF (unless there is an empty slot, of course).

 

[punkbass2000]

"#2. There is a minimum of 4 turns to research a tech. If you have managed to generate that many workers in the first place, at this point, your civ should be able to research a new tech in every 4 turns anyway. Therefore, this exploit won't yield any advantage."

What if you make them Civil Engineers and churn out Wonders?

 

[Moonsinger]

Using this in say the milking phase, you can do 4 turn research towards Future sciences for extra score (plus all those specialists add an extra point of score each) while running 100% lux if you wanted.

Future techs for extra score? I'm sorry...didn't mean to laugh, but that's very funny! From my previous games, 10 future techs would normally increase the score by about 4.5 points. Future techs is basically equal to nothing!!!

 

[superslug]

What if you make them Civil Engineers and churn out Wonders?

I was already leaning towards banning this exploit based on GOTM rules, but this particular point may prove to be the final kiss of death.

 

[Moonsinger]

What if you make them Civil Engineers and churn out Wonders?

Other than the Cure for Cancel and the Longvity which I could easily prebuild both of them ahead of time (hint: use the palace to prebuild one of them and the UN or the Internet or whatever useless Wonder to prebuild the other), Wonders are useless in a milk game.

 

[superslug]

Wonders are useless in a milk game.

In a well controlled/typical milk phase, you're right, but if the conquest phase wasn't pure steamrolling, snagging the UN might be critical.

 

[Gyathaar]

What if you make them Civil Engineers and churn out Wonders?

I dont think you get the shields from civil engiineers in starving cities, thou I may be wrong in the cases where all workable tiles are used..

#1. Where on earth would you get a tons of workers? Workers don't grow on tree, you know.

very true...

#2. There is a minimum of 4 turns to research a tech. If you have managed to generate that many workers in the first place, at this point, your civ should be able to research a new tech in every 4 turns anyway. Therefore, this exploit won't yield any advantage.

Also true.. thou they also add extra score.. these are specialists you get extra over your normal population.
How much score it would add I dont know, because I have never used it myself. But I assume it was banned from GOTM for a reason because someone used it and scored a lot extra I believe? (thou this was in an earlierversion of civ where you just needed a hospital to do it, no need to make the city riot).

IMO, such games won't score very high anyway; therefore, it probably won't make onto the HoF (unless there is an empty slot, of course).

This was what I thought too.. but Superslug pointed out it might be useful in early finish date games even if less useful in high score games. I definately think this should be a bannable exploit thou.. this is an extension of the infinite range bombard bug that somehow made it back into C3C in this form (plus also you can airdrop units anywhere and not just into airports and airfields by using g -> shift-t )

Main reason I am listing these is so they can make it into the banned or allowed list in rules so there is no doubt about it later

I am sure most 'fastest finish' games would benefit from being allowed to run 100% science without caring if you went into nagetive gold - atleast on lower difficulties where you cant wait for AIs to research for you. And as it turns out since it isnt in the list of banned or allowable exploits there is some doubt if it actually can be used or not.

 

[EMan]

@'slug: I would suggest that you err on the side of "No New Rules" unless you are 100% SURE that the Rule change is NECESSARY.

The HOF is NOT a Democracy, since we don't do things by vote or with elected officials!.....Therefore, I feel you should WEIGHT favorably the answers of the PROVEN, STRONGER (Defined by results in HOF) players......like Moonsinger....obviously one of the strongest players in the CFC World.

In the "Add Multiple Workers to Rioting City" case......I don't think there should be ANY restriction unless somebody can PROVE by means of .SAV positions AND allow experts like MS to "cross examine" the Player.

For example, if you add a ton of workers to a Rioting city (You CANNOT add them to a normal C3C city), questions come to mind:

1. How and where were the workers formed?
2. What could the cities have been producing in place of workers?
3. How many shields does the rioting city produce when normal?
4. Do you NEED to produce a Great Wonder?
5. Can the GW be built quicker or cheaper via conventional means?
6. Odds of producing a Scientific Great leader?
7. Has one been produced in the Game and what was done with it?
8. Could the "Sacrificial" workers be put to better use building roads, mines, irrigating, railroads and, oh yes, building and then clearing forests!?
9. If you make the workers in the city civil engineers, does the city add the shields to the GW BEFORE it reduces population and then "reassigns" the workers? (I know this is the easiest question to answer!)

And those questions are just off the top of my head!....Talk is cheap!

In conclusion: When in doubt, DON'T change the Rules!

 

[Moonsinger]

In a well controlled/typical milk phase, you're right, but if the conquest phase wasn't pure steamrolling, snagging the UN might be critical.

Well, I haven't yet run into that! I'm usually reach the domination limit long before any AIs to enter the modern age. In fact, I have been doing everything in my power to encourage the AIs to research faster (exactly why all the AIs in my games are scientific civs), but that doesn't help much either. It's a catch 22 really...On one hand, if I don't rally them to war against a common enemy, they would most definitely join force with my enemy. On the other hand, if they are with me against a common enemy, they won't research much during time of war. Either ways, I usually end up with the almost the entire modern tech tree to research.

Anyway, I will share with you a secret that may out weight all other exploits that I have heard so far on this thread: The unholy power of the army in C3C!

#1. The army can be rushed! Hint: You can have other cities building low end units to sacrifice for the purpose of rushing the army.
#2. 1 extra movement point + defensive bonus + offensive bonus
#3. The AI would never attack an army of full strength
#4. In C3C, the army can heal really fast!

That's it! By mixing those basic four facts, we can come up with so many ways to tame the world into total submission before the modern age; therefore, no need to worry about the UN or nukes. An army of 4 cavalries is my favorite unit.

One thing I hate the most in war is losing my units in battle. It doesn't matter how well I plan the battle or how many cannons or artilleries I have for supporting my troops, I can't avoid losing my units in battle. Of course, there are consequences for losing units in battle (WW, chance for culture flip, replacement cost, etc). Thanks to the army in C3C, those losing days are over! Once I have about 10 armies under my command, none of my troops will die in battle! Once I have 15 armies or more under my command, I can eliminate 1 AI civ in less than 15 turns.

 

[Moonsinger]

This was what I thought too.. but Superslug pointed out it might be useful in early finish date games even if less useful in high score games. I definately think this should be a bannable exploit thou.. this is an extension of the infinite range bombard bug that somehow made it back into C3C in this form (plus also you can airdrop units anywhere and not just into airports and airfields by using g -> shift-t )

Main reason I am listing these is so they can make it into the banned or allowed list in rules so there is no doubt about it later

I just want to make it clear that I have absolutely no objection of any kind whatsoever in banning any exploits that you have mentioned in this thread. I just wanted to point out that I don't think those exploits would help increasing the high score, but then again, I have usually milked my game all the way to 2050AD; therefore, I don't really know much about the short term gain for a fast finish in those exploits.

 

[EMan]

Ironically, Armies could be considered a greater "Exploit" than Adding Workers to Cities or Going Negative Cash.

BUT, if you make building Armies illegal are you then going to delete The Number 1 & 2 positions in the Sid High Score List from perhaps the 2 strongest players in the CFC world.....Moonsinger & SirPleb!?

 

[EMan]

I just want to make it clear that I have absolutely no objection of any kind whatsoever in banning any exploits that you have mentioned in this thread. ; therefore, I don't really know much about the short term gain for a fast finish in those exploits.

I agree totally with the former.....and the latter, I have experience with in the areas of Conquests, UN & 20K.....and still need to be convinced that these "purported" exploits are exactly that!....How about a JPG/SAV file or 2?

 

[Moonsinger]

Ironically, Armies could be considered a greater "Exploit" than Adding Workers to Cities or Going Negative Cash.

BUT, if you make building Armies illegal are you then going to delete The Number 1 & 2 positions in the Sid High Score List from perhaps the 2 strongest players in the CFC world.....Moonsinger & SirPleb!?

That's true! My game would be disqualified and probably SirPleb's game too. Oh btw, that would also disqualify my current Deity C3C game too. I have been playing a little bit of C3C since last week (would explain why I didn't have time to update the MapFinder program to include checking for shield bonus and goodie huts; Dianthus has provided me with a new DLL to check for those things last week; the delay was totally on my part. )

 

[Gyathaar]

That's true! My game would be disqualified and probably SirPleb's game too. Oh btw, that would also disqualify my current Deity C3C game too. I have been playing a little bit of C3C since last week (would explain why I didn't have time to update the MapFinder program to include checking for shield bonus and goodie huts; Dianthus has provided me with a new DLL to check for those things last week; the delay was totally on my part. )

Did you see my request for an extra feature to the mapfinder too btw?

 

[Gyathaar]

For example, if you add a ton of workers to a Rioting city (You CANNOT add them to a normal C3C city), questions come to mind:

1. How and where were the workers formed?
2. What could the cities have been producing in place of workers?
3. How many shields does the rioting city produce when normal?
4. Do you NEED to produce a Great Wonder?
5. Can the GW be built quicker or cheaper via conventional means?
6. Odds of producing a Scientific Great leader?
7. Has one been produced in the Game and what was done with it?
8. Could the "Sacrificial" workers be put to better use building roads, mines, irrigating, railroads and, oh yes, building and then clearing forests!?
9. If you make the workers in the city civil engineers, does the city add the shields to the GW BEFORE it reduces population and then "reassigns" the workers? (I know this is the easiest question to answer!)

I did a quick check of the exploit, and can answer number 9..
whenever the city starves, all the specialists get reset to entertainers as needed to get rid of all unhappy cityzens.. the rest are made into scientists or taxmen depending on your science/tax settings

I was wrong earlier thou.. you can keep the city in riot when adding all those specialists, so as long as you have more unhappy citizens than happy (you need that to bring it into riot in the first place so... I simply sold off the market in a size 33 city to get that to happen..).. no matter how many specialists you add to the city, it will still be in riot (aslong as you dont add clowns ofcourse).. so in theory if you cut the city off from all luxes, you just have to put enough citizens into work to get city into riot.. and then make the rest into taxmen or scientists.. and you will never loose any of these.. and you can add workers into this city whenever you want at a later point.. the freed up tiles can now be worked by other cities to regain almost all the happy citizens you lost from your roiting city.

I believe adding all your spare workers in the milking phase into one city this way would be better for score than adding them to all cities to max their population (if they would become specialists in the other cities).. would be better to let the other cities grow naturally, since you would end up with same number of specialists from the worker joining (adding them as happy citizens to other cities might still be better thou, hard to tell)

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

"Where do you get the workers from?"
I really do't care for the endgame. Doubt there's much impact.
But grabbing 6 Slaves before 2000BC, and join them to a size 6 city without any improvement will result in techs every 4 turns. With 0% Research. And that should be no exploit?
What about the "Specialist Gold Mining", btw? Build a Warrior in the capitol every turn, scroll through the cities, and reassign your population of entirely Specialist producing nothing but wealth to work the high food/production tiles and change all build orders?
Call me a moron, but I am convinced that is not quite a rare cheat in xotMs to be first to Philo...I seriously doubt the frequenzy of successful CoL slingshots above Monarch.

 

[Dianthus]

What about the "Specialist Gold Mining", btw? Build a Warrior in the capitol every turn, scroll through the cities, and reassign your population of entirely Specialist producing nothing but wealth to work the high food/production tiles and change all build orders?

That's listed in "Exploits and Cheats:" section as disallowed:

Changing Laborers pre-Production Phase - Breaking into the build sequence and changing Laborers from high commerce tiles to high production tiles by navigating through the city arrows or F1. Changing the Laborers in a city which has already completed it's production phase is allowable though. (Civ/PtW/C3C)

 

[Gyathaar]

"Where do you get the workers from?"
I really do't care for the endgame. Doubt there's much impact.
But grabbing 6 Slaves before 2000BC, and join them to a size 6 city without any improvement will result in techs every 4 turns. With 0% Research. And that should be no exploit?
What about the "Specialist Gold Mining", btw? Build a Warrior in the capitol every turn, scroll through the cities, and reassign your population of entirely Specialist producing nothing but wealth to work the high food/production tiles and change all build orders?
Call me a moron, but I am convinced that is not quite a rare cheat in xotMs to be first to Philo...I seriously doubt the frequenzy of successful CoL slingshots above Monarch.

Hmm.. yes.. put down a city at a river or lake, wait till it grows enough to riot (or join workers if you have extra ones)... put in workers untill it reach size 12 and make as many scientists as possible while still keeping city in riot.. and you can make up to 30 beakers per turn with no improvements in the town and no improved lands, and no lux or sci

Reassigning specialists and workers pre city production is already banned in the rules.

 

[EMan]

I believe adding all your spare workers in the milking phase into one city this way would be better for score than adding them to all cities to max their population (if they would become specialists in the other cities).. would be better to let the other cities grow naturally, since you would end up with same number of specialists from the worker joining (adding them as happy citizens to other cities might still be better thou, hard to tell)

This is an interesting theory....but MAY be flawed.
For example, it takes a lot of time & money to build all the necessary Aqueducts & Hospitals.......you can speed up the process by using workers to Plant & Clear a Forest on every applicable tile.............then when you've built all the necessary buildings, you use the workers to irrigate all the mined squares to create more food.....then it may score better to add all the workers (keeping some back to clean up pollution) to the cities, with the Luxury slider set to 100%, and get more instant happy workers, which score twice as much as specialists!

@Gyathaar & Doc Tsiolkovski: You both have made some impressive "Potential Exploit" theories using workers.....BUT, again, I think they are debatable.....The Early game add-workers-to-rioting-city..... I would have to see an actual game before buying into. There is an immediate boost to scientist research for sure....BUT, what about future turns?....You've taken up to 11 workers out of play EACH TURN....they could have been building roads/mines/irrigation....which in turn could all increase tech research per turn.

Now let's talk about Civil Engineers in the Middle Game.
Okay, you're right....if you add workers to a rioting city and turn them into civil engineers, each worker added will add 2 shields to the city production providing it's an improvement or Wonder.

Remember, when the city exceeds 12 population, pollution can occur on ANY future turn!

Case A: 20K Victory
In this case, you are building culture in ONE city with a goal of exceeding 20K culture points as quick as possible.
If you add a bunch of workers to a Rioting Core City, one problem you run into is that "The Mob" on an turn can destroy culture-producing buildings like temple/colosseum/cathedral/library/university etc!
That would defeat your purpose!

Case B: UN & Spaceship Victories
You have to have the designated Riot City be able to exceed 12 in population! In order to do this, you will probably have to research Sanitation.....an UNNECESSARY delay of at least 4 turns. (Remember, End Date is what matters.) If you designated a Pre-build city, you could build the UN or Apollo program soon after they become available OR immediately, if you "hold back" a Scientific Great leader specifically for the purpose of building same Wonder.

Some other considerations:
1. When your Riot city gets Pollution, and it probably will, the city will CEASE to riot for that turn!...AND, you will have to set up the "Riot Structure" all over again
2. When a city starves on a turn, the Civil Engineers' shields do NOT get added to the Production Box
3. As stated above, when a city is in Civil Disorder, The Mob may level buildings in your city.

I'm NOT saying the Big Rioting Cities is NOT an exploit.....BUT, it's not that clear that it is!