Holding Multiple Offices

[Blkbird]

Blkbird, I'm not twisting your words. It's not clear to me, okay?

Immediate problem - you have a useless provision in there - the 60% provision. I have no problem with polling a single candidate vs abstain, time waste, but not problem. What will happen is that some citizens will ignore it, some will vote abstain to be perverse and most will actually vote yes because there is just one person there. There won't be anyone that actually fails to get 60%, thus it's a junk requirement.

Keep the process simple, keep it easy and make sure that we only duplicate offices when we have to. Under your proposal, a citizen without office could be ignored if the Pres. wants to appoint a buddy. That's bunk.

I didn't come up with that idea, I just re-wrote GoergeOP's proposal to mean the same thing he meant - only with more clearity. Therefore I find it very sad and ironic that you find it unclear.

Moderator Action: Blkbird: just answer the question and don't troll. Apparently it is not clear. - Rik

@Rik: I'm not trolling, seriously. I'm telling exactly what happend, and how I feel about my apparent failure in clearing up GeorgeOP's proposal.

 

[DaveShack]

OK, it's clear that the best way to eliminate the confusion here is to post what seems to be the latest proposal and then explain what the intent must be vs. what it actually says.

Revision 3
Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Office
B Limits to Holding Office
I No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II If 72 hours passes after a Cabinet member or Cabinet member elect posts a job openning for a deputy or Gubanatorial position and no elgible citizen applies, the job shal be declared Vacant.
a A Governor may apply or run for a position before it is declared vacant, as long as they give up their Governor position once they accept the new position.
b If an office is declared Vacant, Governors may apply to fill that Vacancy without risk of losing their governorship.
III There is a strict limit of two official offices for any one citizen.
​

The intent seems to be:

• Tri and Judiciary cannot hold another office
• When a vacant office or deputy opening is posted, anyone who applies for the job in the first 72 hours must not already have another office. If anyone applies, then the official making the appointment must choose from among the applicants.
• If more than 72 hours passes, then governors are allowed to apply for the vacant job.
• The most jobs anyone can have is two.

In this latest version, the 60% thing is gone so it wouldn't be a point of contention, right?

=======

In previous posts about the 60%, the confusing part was "running for a position". What it should have meant, and the first version came close to, was:

An official may apply for a 2nd job. If this happens, the citizens must approve the application to have a 2nd job by a 60% margin, not counting abstains.
​

 

[GeorgeOP]

Correct. No one can run for more than one office, so no one can hold more than one Cabinet position. So we are limiting appointed positions.

I see what you are getting at. If Mr.A has a deputy position open, and Mrs.B were the only person to apply who didn't already have a position, Mr.A would be forced to select Mrs.B. The same thing happens now, if only one person applies. And Mr.A's friends can apply for the job, they would just have to decide if they were willing to give up their other position to do so. I know in RL when the current President first took office, he offered a job to our Governor. He had to give up his Governorship in order to take the position. This will open up more jobs for more people as we grow in size, but we can make states that would shrink the number of jobs if we needed to.

Do you think it needs more revision, or are you just making sure we're all on the same page?

Edit: Although I think a and b needs to read "A Governor or a deputy" instead of "A Governor".

 

[Blkbird]

I support DS' proposal. However:

"If 72 hours passes after a Cabinet member or Cabinet member elect posts a job openning for a deputy or Gubanatorial position [...]"

Shouldn't the clause be applicable to vacant Cabinet offices themselves as well - in which case the job openning is posted by the Prez?

 

[GeorgeOP]

Normally, a Deputy just takes over the job of Cabinet member. However, there may be a time that such a position opens before a deputy is named, so I'll change it to...
"If 72 hours passes after the President, a Cabinet member, or Cabinet member elect posts a job openning for a Cabinet member, deputy, or Gubanatorial position [...]"

I'm at a Neoware terminal right now, and I can't do any fancy posting. I'll post a mock poll in about 10 hours unless someone sees something else that I forgot about.

 

[ravensfire]

GeorgeOP,

I think we're starting to trip over language and collide with the other CoL amendment you've suggested. I think there's a way to do what you're looking for and keep things clear.

Start with striking that section, and rewrite Section 8 to cover everything in both sections. That way, it's putting everything related to Vacancies in one place. It makes that aspect of the CoL easier to read.


Section 8 - Office Limits and Vacancies

A. Limits to Holding office
I. No member of the Triumverate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II. Governors and Members of the Cabinet may hold up to two offices at the same time.

B. Vacancies
I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.
II. Triumverate Vacancies
a. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumverate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretry of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.
b. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.
c. The nominee may be any citizen that does not currently hold a Triumverate or Judicial position. If the nominee holds another office, they must resign immediately upon confirmation.
c. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.
III. Cabinet Vacancies
a. The President must offer the position to the Deputy, if there is one.
b. If there is no deputy, the President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
c. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.
IV. Governor Vacancies
a. Governor Vacancies are filled as per Section 2, Sub-section I, Clause IB.
V. Judicial Vacancies
a. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. This appointment may be challedged by a confirmation poll.
VI. All vacancy appointments are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.
a. Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office. This is a private poll, asking the question "Should <citizen name> serve as <office>?", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll should last for 48 hours. If a majority of citizens who vote, excluding abstain, vote no, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term.
b. Should an appointment require a citizen to resign from a current office, that citizen does not have to resign until the provisional period passes.

So, we're merging two sections (and both of your amendments) into one section. I think the Governor stuff should be in there too, but I'm quite tired, and running out of steam, so I'll leave that off for now.

-- Ravensfire

 

[GeorgeOP]

Section 1 The Federal Government
B) The Executive Branch
IV Vacancies
IVA. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to one of the following reasons: no one ran for the office, the office holder resigns, the office holder is removed from office by impeachment, the office holder is removed from office as punishment for a crime, or if the office holder is removed from office by the Judiciary if said office holder is absent for more than 7 days without the office holder posting notification.
IVB. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the Presidency be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate until a special election can be held.
IVC. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. Should there not be a deputy the President shall appoint an office holder.
IVD. Should a vacancy occur in a Gubernatorial office it will be fill in a manner proscribed in Section 2, Sub-section I, Clause IB.
IVE. Should a vacancy occur in the Judiciary the President shall appoint the Judge.
IVF. Any Citizen may post a nonconforming poll within 48 hours of the official announcement of an appointment.

Section 2 The Local Government
A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or states.
IB. Powers and Duties of the Governors Council:
1. The Governors Council shall not exist until there are at least three Governors. Until then vacant Gubernatorial offices shall filled by an appointment of the Minister of the Interior.
...
3. Any vacant Gubernatorial office will be filled by an appointment of the Governors Council.
(Reorder this section as needed)

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Offices
A) Limits to Running for Offices.
I. No Citizen may run for more than one office during an election cycle.
B) Limits to Holding Offices.
I. No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
IA. An exception to this is a member of the Triumvirate assuming the duties and powers of a vacant Triumvirate office.
II. A member of the Cabinet may hold one other Cabinet office, Gubernatorial office or a Deputy position.
III. A Governor may hold one other Gubernatorial office, a Cabinet office, or a Deputy position.
IV. A citizen with no other positions may hold two Deputy positions.
V. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.

and replace that text with:

Section 8 - Office Limits and Vacancies

A. Limits to Holding office
I. No member of the Triumverate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II. Governors and Members of the Cabinet may hold up to two offices at the same time.

B. Vacancies
I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.
II. Triumverate Vacancies
a. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumverate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretry of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.
b. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.
c. The nominee may be any citizen that does not currently hold a Triumverate or Judicial position. If the nominee holds another office, they must resign immediately upon confirmation.
c. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.
III. Cabinet Vacancies
a. The President must offer the position to the Deputy, if there is one.
b. If there is no deputy, the President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
c. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.
IV. Governor Vacancies
a. The Governors Council must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Coucil within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Council may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. If there is no Governors Council, the Minister of Interior must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Minister of Interior within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Minister of Interior may appoint any citizen to the office.
V. Judicial Vacancies
a. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. This appointment may be challedged by a confirmation poll.
VI. All vacancy appointments are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.
a. Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office. This is a private poll, asking the question "Should <citizen name> serve as <office>?", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll should last for 48 hours. If a majority of citizens who vote, excluding abstain, vote no, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term.
b. A Citizen who holds office may apply for a new office before the 72 hour waiting period, provided they write in their application that they will resign from their current office. That citizen does not have to resign until the provisional period passes.
VII. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.

Please read carefully. I was wrong in the interpretation of election of Governors before, and I don't want to mess it up in the CoL.

@ravensfire: Thanks for all your help with the legal jargon. It sounds much more official now.

 

[ravensfire]

GeorgeOP - looks pretty good! Nice job on moving the Governor stuff over, except for one small detail ...

2.A.I.IB.1 - You need to keep the first sentence "he Governors Council shall not exist until there are at least three Governors".

That's the only place the GC is defined, and it's the logical place to define it. Minor, minor tweak that doesn't affect the proposal.



-- Ravensfire

 

[GeorgeOP]

Oops, in my paper re-write, I had it correct. I just messed up in the coding. Thanks.

 

[GeorgeOP]

This is a Mock Poll per the Judicial Procedures. This bill will be presented to the Judiciary in 24 hours unless there are a lot of objections.



Thread Title: Code of Laws Amendment - Sections 1, 2, and 8

Text:
This is a Citizen's Initiative poll for the amendment of the Code of Laws, Section 1 A, Section 2 B, and Section 8. The purpose of this amendment is to limit multiple positions and change the way vacancies are handled.

This is a public poll, and will run for 4 days. For this amendment to pass, a 6/10 majority of voters must vote 'Yes'.

Discussion threads can be found for URL="http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155166"]Multiple Offices[/URL] and URL="http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=155319"]Filling Vacancies[/URL].

Do you wish to adopt these amendments?

Code of Laws:

Section 1 The Federal Government
B) The Executive Branch
IV Vacancies
IVA. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to one of the following reasons: no one ran for the office, the office holder resigns, the office holder is removed from office by impeachment, the office holder is removed from office as punishment for a crime, or if the office holder is removed from office by the Judiciary if said office holder is absent for more than 7 days without the office holder posting notification.
IVB. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the Presidency be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate until a special election can be held.
IVC. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. Should there not be a deputy the President shall appoint an office holder.
IVD. Should a vacancy occur in a Gubernatorial office it will be fill in a manner proscribed in Section 2, Sub-section I, Clause IB.
IVE. Should a vacancy occur in the Judiciary the President shall appoint the Judge.
IVF. Any Citizen may post a nonconforming poll within 48 hours of the official announcement of an appointment.

Section 2 The Local Government
A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or states.
IB. Powers and Duties of the Governors Council:
1. The Governors Council shall not exist until there are at least three Governors. Until then vacant Gubernatorial offices shall filled by an appointment of the Minister of the Interior.
...
3. Any vacant Gubernatorial office will be filled by an appointment of the Governors Council.
(Reorder this section as needed)

Section 8 Limit to Running and Holding Offices
A) Limits to Running for Offices.
I. No Citizen may run for more than one office during an election cycle.
B) Limits to Holding Offices.
I. No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
IA. An exception to this is a member of the Triumvirate assuming the duties and powers of a vacant Triumvirate office.
II. A member of the Cabinet may hold one other Cabinet office, Gubernatorial office or a Deputy position.
III. A Governor may hold one other Gubernatorial office, a Cabinet office, or a Deputy position.
IV. A citizen with no other positions may hold two Deputy positions.
V. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.​

Amendment:

Section 8 - Office Limits and Vacancies

A. Limits to Holding Office
I. No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
II. Governors and Members of the Cabinet may hold up to two offices at the same time.

B. Vacancies
I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.
II. Triumvirate Vacancies
a. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumvirate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretary of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.
b. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.
c. The nominee may be any citizen that does not currently hold a Triumvirate or Judicial position. If the nominee holds another office, they must resign immediately upon confirmation.
c. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.
III. Cabinet Vacancies
a. The President must offer the position to the Deputy, if there is one.
b. If there is no deputy, the President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
c. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.
IV. Governor Vacancies
a. The Governors Council must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Council within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Council may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. If there is no Governors Council, the Minister of Interior must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Minister of Interior within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Minister of Interior may appoint any citizen to the office.
V. Judicial Vacancies
a. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
b. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.
VI. All vacancy appointments which are subject to a confirmation poll are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.
a. Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office. This is a private poll, asking the question "Should <citizen name> serve as <office>?", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll should last for 48 hours. If a majority of citizens who vote, excluding abstain, vote no, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term.
b. A Citizen who holds office may apply for a new office before the 72 hour waiting period provided they write in their application that they will resign from their current office. That citizen does not have to resign until the provisional period passes.
VII. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.​

Poll Question: Do you wish to amend Sections 1, 2, and 8 of Code of Laws as follows?

Yes
No
Abstain

Poll settings:
Duration - 4 days
Public Poll - Checked

 

[DaveShack]

Note: these comments do not constitute "substantial" comments and don't reset the 24 hour clock.

• There are several typos, missing words, misspellings, and other grammatical and style issues. It is not strictly necessary to fix these problems, unless the meaning is changed. It's 0100 and I've been short of sleep all week, I'm not trying to find all of these types of problems.
• It is easier to copy/paste the text with formatting if indent tags are used instead of quotes.
• Confirmation polls are listed in subsection VI, but are not valid in all circumstances. It should say something like "All vacancy appointments which are subject to a confirmation poll are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority." I consider this comment a minor change to clarify the wording so a future JR is not necessary.

 

[DaveShack]

A request for judicial review of this proposed amendment has been accepted.