"Holocaust was a hoax"


First of all, I honestly question that it was true incompetence. At best they were absolutely indifferent to human life, but I believe they did deliberately allow those people to die.

I don't really buy that it was just a sad mistake the twenty millionth time.

It doesn't ultimately matter though, the bottom line is, twice as many people (Roughly, anyway) died under the Stalinist regime than the Nazi one. That doesn't change anything that the Nazis did, or justified them, but Stalin ultimately killed more. And Mao killed even more than Stalin did.
 
First of all, I honestly question that it was true incompetence. At best they were absolutely indifferent to human life, but I believe they did deliberately allow those people to die.
Who allowed which people to die? You're kinda mushing everything together, here. The Ukrainian Famine was not the Purges was not the Chinese Civil War was not the Great Leap Forward was not the Cultural Revolution, and it's pretty silly to make sweeping statements about all of them at once.

I don't really buy that it was just a sad mistake the twenty millionth time.
Well, if you look back my exact phrasing was "incompetence and indifference", not "sad mistake". I think my phrasing carries an obviously critical tone, while you seem to present me as an apologist.

It doesn't ultimately matter though, the bottom line is, twice as many people (Roughly, anyway) died under the Stalinist regime than the Nazi one. That doesn't change anything that the Nazis did, or justified them, but Stalin ultimately killed more. And Mao killed even more than Stalin did.
By that reckoning, there's no "bottom line" difference between a natural disaster that kills on hundred people, and a terrorist attack that kills one hundred people, because in either case, one hundred people are dead. When the human element is removed, all we have is a series of statistics.
 
The disaster isn't anyone's fault.

I don't think that you're apologizing, but I do think that the line of thinking that Stalin and Mao were somehow "less responsible" makes American involvement in World War II look much better than the line of thinking that Stalin and Mao were fully responsible for the deaths in their countries just like Hitler was does.

(That was clunkily worded but I think you get the point.)
 
The disaster isn't anyone's fault.
You've already excluded human agency as a significant factor, so that's not relevant. If deliberately homicide is identical to inadvertent homicide, at least when we reach a sufficiently large scale, then it is also identical to accidental death. All that matters is the fact of death, not the subjective actions that lead to that death.

I don't think that you're apologizing, but I do think that the line of thinking that Stalin and Mao were somehow "less responsible" makes American involvement in World War II look much better than the line of thinking that Stalin and Mao were fully responsible for the deaths in their countries just like Hitler was does.
My position on World War 2 is that advanced by the left communists, which is that it was a war between imperial powers, and that the working class had no interest in an alliance with "democratic" capital against "fascist" capital". So, that isn't really a concern for me.
 
It does somewhat defeat the point (and also look just a bit suspect) to want such a definition of "genocide" that ultimately would only include your own genocide as qualified to count.

I think it is somewhat spurious to argue that the Jewish genocide is a genocide whereas the Armenian one is not (which basically was what the topic of the thread was for most of its part).
To try to claim that the Jewish genocide was a real genocide because the germans of ww2 had the supposed, theoretical ability to exterminate the whole of the jewish race is not even a rational argument, since they never had that ability. I doubt Germany would manage to invade and capture Britain at any later time, given that they obviously were not keen on that idea even at the height of their power during the war. Moreover it is not very realistic to think they would invade the US. They did invade Russia, and we saw how realistic that was too.

Whereas one may claim that the germans wanted to exterminate all jews, that by itself, even if true, is not an argument for anything.
 
Whereas one may claim that the germans wanted to exterminate all jews, that by itself, even if true, is not an argument for anything.

Actually, it kinda is, since intent is a crucial part of the legal definition of genocide.
 
Actually, it kinda is, since intent is a crucial part of the legal definition of genocide.

It seems logical to assume that intent by itelf matters only in regard to actual capacity to cause the effect one was supposedly intending to cause.

So again, the germans of ww2 did not have the capacity to kill all of the jewish people, they did not even have the capacity to kill all of the jewish people in Europe. Indeed they had the capacity to kill a large part of the jewish population in Europe (and they did), but i do not see how this by itself should be part of the definition of a genocide. Surely the term genocide does not exist solely to be defining the jewish genocide.
 
It doesn't ultimately matter though, the bottom line is, twice as many people (Roughly, anyway) died under the Stalinist regime than the Nazi one. That doesn't change anything that the Nazis did, or justified them, but Stalin ultimately killed more. And Mao killed even more than Stalin did.
You are equalizing deaths due to mismanagement, natural disasters (such as drought in 1932), post-war famine of 1946 (due to utter destruction of country's economy and infrastructure), with deliberate executions or extermination of people in death camps. Number of people executed during all 20 years of Stalin's rule is 600.000 - 800.000. Death toll of Auschwitz alone is estimated as 1-4 millions.
 
Kyriakos said:
Does seem quite extensive as losses for a single conflict, in which moreover the entire Poland-Lithuania was occupied (by Sweden and Russia).

So in your opinion it is harder to massacre civilians in non-occupied territory than in occupied territory? Because it seems that you mentioned occupation as a factor which should contribute to less extensive population losses (this how I understand your statement above).

BTW - speaking of occupation of Poland-Lithuania in the Second Northern War is rather erroneous, because neither Swedes, nor Russians (nor Transylvanians, nor Cossacks, nor Prussian-Brandenburgians - as they also invaded) - and also neither all of them combined - controlled entire territory of the Commonwealth at one given time.

It is more suitable to say that nearly entire territory of Poland-Lithuania became an area of wartime operations (it was a one huge "battlefield" to describe it metaphorically), rather than to say that it was occupied.

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As for the population loss claimed by wikipedia to be 40%.

It was a reduction of population from about 12 million (1640s) to about 7 million (1670s) - so nearly by 40% indeed.

Urban population suffered more. For example in 3 core voivodeships of Lesser Poland urbanization level (percentage of population which lived in cities and towns) was reduced from over 30% (perhaps even 35%) before the wars to 15% after the wars (not only the Second Northern War but entire period 1648 - 1667).

Already in year 1578 those three core voivodeships had 30% urbanization level (and it continued to increase at high speed until 1648):

Lesser Poland = Małopolska

Two scans from the book "Historia miast i mieszczaństwa w Polsce" ("History of urbanization and townsmen in Poland"):

1578.jpg


In year 1662 - after the main period of wars (which started in 1648 and continued until 1667 and then in 1670s against Turkey):

1662.jpg


And wars were usually followed by epidemic diseases, which further decimated the population throughout the 1670s.
 
Just a non-ideal phraseology there on my part, i meant to actually highlight that according to the article the entire country was occupied, or a battlefield as you said. I did not refer to that as something which should discredit the view that the losses were akin to a genocide- if anything it gives such a claim more credence.
 
according to the article the entire country was occupied,

The claim that it was "occupied" is wrong mainly because neither of Poland's enemies had enough soldiers to leave garrisons in every town and castle they captured (or which betrayed to their side - like nobility of Greater Poland at Ujscie or Lithuanian Radziwill family at Kiejdany). And also because they never managed to control every single major urban center or stronghold (some of large, well-defended cities and fortresses remained in Polish hands all the time).

But wartime operations ravaged nearly entire country.

The map which can be found on English wikipedia claims that it describes "area occupied by Sweden and by Russia" - in fact these are areas of the farthest extent of advance / operation of Swedish and Russian forces (and they are described like this in PPWK's "Historical Atlas of Poland"). Not all of those areas were controlled / occupied by enemy forces at the same time, but all of them were ravaged by the invaders at least once during the war.

Also Transylvanian forces of prince George II Rakoczi devastated enormous area of land in 1657. They marched as far to the north as the Narew river. Later they were finally defeated by Polish forces in Ukraine in two major battles, but before that they managed to ravage huge territory.

I did not refer to that as something which should discredit the view that the losses were akin to a genocide- if anything it gives such a claim more credence.

Common practice of Swedish forces was to exterminate population of towns and villages which were owned by people who did not support the Swedish king. So we can call it a genocide because the definition of a genocide includes also murders motivated by political factors (not only ethnic and religious factors).

If some magnate at the beginning betrayed to the Swedish side and later changed his mind (i.e. started to resist the Swedish invaders), then his property was being immediately ravaged by Swedish forces and his subjects massacres. Many private towns were destroyed this way.

But also towns which were Royal Property of the Polish king were ravaged mercilessly. Some of them vanished completely.

Those crimes were motivated by desire to plunder ($$$) and by desire to supress political opposition via destroying their real estate.

Of course Swedish crimes were partially also motivated by religious factors - they were Lutherans in a mostly Catholic-Jewish country.

It should be noted that Sweden in 1650s was a country of very poor people compared to inhabitants of Poland-Lithuania. An average Swedish peasant, who was conscripted to the Swedish army which invaded Poland in 1655, could see "wonders" that were unusual and rare in his home country. This contributed to their brutality.

The same extraordinary savagery was typical for Swedish forces during the Thirty Years War, when they mercilessly plundered German states. Brutality in general was typical for all wars and all armies of the 17th century Europe - but the Swedish army was known for its extraordinary savagery already at that time, when all armies were brutal.

It should be noted that also Polish forces contributed to destructions - especially in Greater Poland, which was a region that betrayed in 1655 and supported the Swedish king early in the war. In later stages of the war Polish forces under Stefan Czarniecki took revenge on traitors from 1655.

Stefan Czarniecki tried to discourage his soldiers from taking revenge on local population of this land which betrayed. Czarniecki even personally carried out executions of insubordinate soldiers who plundered real estate in Greater Poland (all caught red-handed were being sentenced to death).

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Edit:

I made a map showing military operations of main forces of the invaders in period 1654 - 1657 (these are movements of main forces only, I did not include operation of minor units which were assigned with various tasks, like for example the siege of Jasna Gora / Czestochowa):

http://postimg.org/image/b56iokm1j/full/

Spoiler :
Potop_Marsze.png
 
When it comes to the Swedish army in the 17th century. They were "the Huns under Attila" of their time. Savage fighters.

Here is a description of average Swedish infantrymen by French envoy Charles Ogier (born 1595 - died 1654).

"(...) I had doubts if those were even humans, they were so feral, dirty, unkempt, entirely raggedy and barefoot. Most of them were just silly peasant juveniles. And those were the Swedes in question, who are being taken away from their fields and plows and forcefully conscripted to the army by the state. (...)"

He also described the dirt and smell in Swedish army's provisional military camp near Marienburg.

Sweden was one of the first European countries which started to rely on modern mass conscription as a way of mobilizing large armies.

Thanks to this (and also mercenaries) they could mobilize relatively large armies despite the fact that Sweden had very small population.

For other European states, Swedish soldiers in the 17th century were the Mongols or the Huns of their time. Barbaric, but dangerous.

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The part about barefoot Swedish infantry reminds my of the CS Army in the ACW (they also had a serious shortage of shoes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPSaN8j16uA#t=50m18s
 
It seems logical to assume that intent by itelf matters only in regard to actual capacity to cause the effect one was supposedly intending to cause.

No; intent matters only in regard to the actions actually taken. It doesn't matter if they could destroy the jews as a whole, or the jews of Europe, or the jews of Germany even; the one question that matters is whether they took certain actions with the intent of destroying the jews as a people, in whole or in (a large, significant) part.

Whether or not they had the means doesn't even come into play for the legal definition of genocide.

"Destroy as a people" doesn't have to imply directly killing, either. Among other things, forcibly taking the children of a group away (to be raised by other groups, etc) is specifically considered a form of genocide. So is putting the group in living conditions deliberately calculated to destroy them (even if you don't actually kill them), or forcibly preventing them from having children.
 
No; intent matters only in regard to the actions actually taken. It doesn't matter if they could destroy the jews as a whole, or the jews of Europe, or the jews of Germany even; the one question that matters is whether they took certain actions with the intent of destroying the jews as a people, in whole or in (a large, significant) part.

Whether or not they had the means doesn't even come into play for the legal definition of genocide.

This sounds very irrational. If the only thing that matters is if a power "took certain actions with the intent" of destroying a people, or a large/significant part of them, then it only takes one lunatic in power to take some actions with such an intent, and it no longer matters what actually took place as supposed outcome of said action. In this way one can say that Hitler could have had just the intent of killing all of the jews or a large part of them, and took action with said intent, but then he only managed to kill 1000 jews because (in this hypothetical) germany was bombed to hell before it got to win over France and capitulated. In this hypothetical Hitler would still had the same intent and would have taken the same actions with that intent, he just would have had only killed 1000 jews. In your logic (which is utterly false on this) the death of 1000 jews in that hypothetical would have been a genocide... :crazyeye:

I sincerely doubt You believe your post, since i refuse to think you fail to see how erroneous it is. And somehow i have the feeling that, at best, just this one sentence will end up being responded to, as if that was my entire argument :/
 
My post is not "erroneous". You may not like what it says, but that's the way the definition is. Go talk the UN and the international tribunals into changing it, if you don't like it.

Also, keep in mind the relative difficulty of proving the actions were taken with the intent of destroying the gruop. You're usually going to need some pretty large-scale and systematic set of actions to prove the intent of the action was destruction of the group.
 
Got it. In other words in your view there is only one genocide ever commited, at least to groups who can be reasonably said to still be in existence.

Everything else can be attributed to incompetence, indifference, non-systematic set of actions used, insufficient proof of linking actions to actual intent. All in all in this planet there can be said to have been only one genocide. So the 'genos' (kind/race) is rather misleadingly vague...
 
My position on World War 2 is that advanced by the left communists, which is that it was a war between imperial powers, and that the working class had no interest in an alliance with "democratic" capital against "fascist" capital". So, that isn't really a concern for me.

Am I to gather a lack of support for the Soviet alliance with the UK and US?
 
Am I to gather a lack of support for the Soviet alliance with the UK and US?
I include the Soviet Union in the category of "democratic" capital. The working class had no more interest in dying for the socialist motherland than they had in dying for King & Country or for la République.

(A provocative contemporary piece on the issue, courtesy of the IWW.)
 
Got it. In other words in your view there is only one genocide ever commited, at least to groups who can be reasonably said to still be in existence.

Everything else can be attributed to incompetence, indifference, non-systematic set of actions used, insufficient proof of linking actions to actual intent. All in all in this planet there can be said to have been only one genocide. So the 'genos' (kind/race) is rather misleadingly vague...

I quite honestly don't know where you got the idea I said that.

There have been quite a number of cases of a country or area witnessing systematic, sustained action with the intent of destroying a given group as a group.

But not every action that resulted in a large death toll is a genocide, and not every genocide involve deliberate murder. The judge in charge of examining the matter of the Canadian residential school system mentioned I believe that it constituted a genocide. And he's right. It was the systematic taking away of the children of a specific people (the natives) with the intent of ending the natives as a people.

Genocides are measured by intent, not by body count.
 
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