Hoplite adjacency bonus

[Our_DeCay]

While watching the Greece First look video I was wondering the following about the hoplite adjacency bonus:

When you're attacking with a hoplite, does the adjacency bonus only count when you have another hoplite adjacent to the tile you move to or does it also count if you have a hoplite adjacent to the tile you move from.

I'll illustrate it with an image below:

Spoiler :

In this image 'H' is a hoplite unit and 'E' is an enemy unit.
Say for instance you move your hoplite from tile 1 to tile 2. Will or won't the adjacency bonus count in this example? Any thoughts?

If it won't then it makes sense that they call the hoplite a defensive unit and it might be more difficult to get the bonus while attacking, because you sort of have to surround the enemy unit in order to get the bonus.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Adjacency bonuses should count in this example, because unit doesn't leave the tile during combat. It only leaves the tile if the enemy unit is killed and the move in this case is after the combat.

 

[Big J Money]

The bigger question to me is, how often does one build multiple spearman units and place them side by side in Civ. This also kind of discourages you from putting your hoplites in corps (although maybe that tech/policy won't be discovered by then, but it will affect upgraded versions).

 

[stealth_nsk]

The bigger question to me is, how often does one build multiple spearman units and place them side by side in Civ. This also kind of discourages you from putting your hoplites in corps (although maybe that tech/policy won't be discovered by then, but it will affect upgraded versions).

It means you need to adapt your tactics and strategy as Greece. The bonus is too strong to ignore.

Corps are available much later (in Industrial era civic).

 

[George Abitbol]

I guess it works like the Honor Discipine policy in Civ5.

 

[Xen]

I love this bonus- Greek players will be rolling across the world in phalanx formation.

 

[cazaderonus]

It means you need to adapt your tactics and strategy as Greece. The bonus is too strong to ignore.

Corps are available much later (in Industrial era civic).

i agree.

Hoplite are a very early game unit. And with their bonus, they could easily fend off an entire army and even some cities by themself. Also, they act as a formidable protection for siege units.

 

[Our_DeCay]

Adjacency bonuses should count in this example, because unit doesn't leave the tile during combat. It only leaves the tile if the enemy unit is killed and the move in this case is after the combat.

Ah ok, I think that makes sense.
I was groundlessly assuming while moving to attack the unit would be in some sort of no man's land

 

[ThomasClark]

The adjacency should count. I don't think Corps come into play until...Renaissance perhaps.

I'm on the fence about using the Hoplite as a conquering unit. I look at the available promotions - the known level 1 promotions are vs mounted and vs melee. So facing any kind of fortified opposition of spearman and archers, Hoplites are fairly stuck at the +10 advantage, and that could be nullified by specific terrain.

Still, Hoplites are such a production/gold efficient unit, and should enable Greece to snipe settlers, conquer new expands, etc. And a level 1 promoted Hoplite will play against melee units at 45 strength - put them in a fortified position and they will be OK defensively all the way into the Renaissance vs Musketman units (55 str).

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Greece could use its wildecard slot to run conscription which will make its hoplite army maintaince free.

Swords require iron and are more expensive while cavalry and warriors are to weak to fight hoplites making it a tricky unit to counter in the ancient and classical era.

 

[Big J Money]

I guess it's not too different from how to play the Impi with ambush. I am still a little skeptical and will be interested to see if 2 hoplite can actually be better than 1 hoplite + 1 archer.

I didn't make much use of Honor's Discipline in Civ V. It was a small enough bonus that I felt it was outweighed by whatever immediate tactical positioning concerns there were like "i must attack the catapult now", "I must defend against the cavalry unit", etc. The +10 this will grant is at least a much more sizable bonus; 40%!

I guess I shouldn't worry too much about upgraded units being negated by corps because by then +10 will be far less significant anyway.

I don't see them as attacking units though. It won't matter if you take the 'vs melee' promotion because so can your opponent's swordsmen, who will also be in fortify. Although as far as their ability vs ranged... if they get a flat +10 from adjacency, that should help vs ranged just as much as vs melee, right? Unless there is a separate 'ranged defense' stat.

 

[George Abitbol]

I didn't make much use of Honor's Discipline in Civ V.

Combined with the flanking bonus it can be interesting.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I guess it's not too different from how to play the Impi with ambush. I am still a little skeptical and will be interested to see if 2 hoplite can actually be better than 1 hoplite + 1 archer.

I didn't make much use of Honor's Discipline in Civ V. It was a small enough bonus that I felt it was outweighed by whatever immediate tactical positioning concerns there were like "i must attack the catapult now", "I must defend against the cavalry unit", etc. The +10 this will grant is at least a much more sizable bonus; 40%!

I guess I shouldn't worry too much about upgraded units being negated by corps because by then +10 will be far less significant anyway.

The combat in Civ6 is calculated differently - it's based on difference. So 10 vs. 20 is the same as 100 vs. 110. Those +10 are very strong.

I don't see them as attacking units though. It won't matter if you take the 'vs melee' promotion because so can your opponent's swordsmen, who will also be in fortify.

Hoplites with their bonus are equal to Swordsmen in stats, but not direct fight - as Hoplites have bonuses vs. cavalry, while Swordsmen have bonus vs. spears/pikes, including Hoplites. On the other hand, Hoplites are cheaper to build, cheaper to support, don't require resources and are available earlier. So, it's very easy to win against swords using numbers.

They look like the best early-game force.

Although as far as their ability vs ranged... if they get a flat +10 from adjacency, that should help vs ranged just as much as vs melee, right? Unless there is a separate 'ranged defense' stat.

Yes, this should help against ranged attacks too.

 

[Gamling80]

I wonder if the UU as the Hoplites has their own special promotion trees. These special promotions could be able to be carried over when the unit gets upgraded much like some UU of civ V for example the Iroquois braves forest bonuses.

This way Firaxis has the choice to choose what abilities (promotions) that can be inherited and which is limited to the UU for the age you use them. I for one would like if some special cultural promotions of the UU can be carried over and kept trough the game.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Hoplites can be used to secure land against dangerous barbarians, civs who have early unique units will likely be the onces that will found the largest empires because they can invest less into military and more into settlers.

Given that hoplites are good from late ancient and whole classical, greece do not need to keep up in military tech early and thus have more freedom in the early game.

Naturally the disadvantage of having early units are that you will likely not have any unique units during the mid or late game which is probably around the part of the game in which war will really be about conquest.

Another thing worth to mention is that ancient era units do not get any bonuses from great generals.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

I'm on the fence about using the Hoplite as a conquering unit. I look at the available promotions - the known level 1 promotions are vs mounted and vs melee. So facing any kind of fortified opposition of spearman and archers, Hoplites are fairly stuck at the +10 advantage, and that could be nullified by specific terrain.

Keep in mind that being a unique unit often comes with the perk of having access to unique promotions! I'd be surprised if they didn't get a unique promo or two to enable some Alexander-like conquest sprees, if one is so inclined.

 

[ThomasClark]

Keep in mind that being a unique unit often comes with the perk of having access to unique promotions! I'd be surprised if they didn't get a unique promo or two to enable some Alexander-like conquest sprees, if one is so inclined.

Now that would be very cool and compelling. We haven't seen the whole promotion tree for Spearman as it is, making it a little harder to assess. Nor do we know what Pikeman upgrade to, and if Hoplites keep a +10 promotion.

I also looked at the Civic tree and Greece will have good cause to go straight to Military Tradition and unlock flanking bonuses. They could also equip +2 Great General points from that tech (in their Wildcard slot) and maybe get a quick classical era Great General, at which point the Hoplite wall starts to get pretty scary. The +10 advantage could become +17 to +20 with flanking and a GG.

 

[cazaderonus]

Now that would be very cool and compelling. We haven't seen the whole promotion tree for Spearman as it is, making it a little harder to assess. Nor do we know what Pikeman upgrade to, and if Hoplites keep a +10 promotion.

I also looked at the Civic tree and Greece will have good cause to go straight to Military Tradition and unlock flanking bonuses. They could also equip +2 Great General points from that tech (in their Wildcard slot) and maybe get a quick classical era Great General, at which point the Hoplite wall starts to get pretty scary. The +10 advantage could become +17 to +20 with flanking and a GG.

Sounds like a solid plan to me. Throw in 3 archers and a couple battering ram (and that's if there's even walls) behind 5 hoplite and you've got yourself a solid sharp spear

 

[criZp]

The bigger question to me is, how often does one build multiple spearman units and place them side by side in Civ.

Quite often when doing so gives +10 strenght to both.

 

[ZTZaorish]

The bigger question to me is, how often does one build multiple spearman units and place them side by side in Civ. This also kind of discourages you from putting your hoplites in corps (although maybe that tech/policy won't be discovered by then, but it will affect upgraded versions).

Play Honor Boudicca~
I have easily gotten to +80 or + 95% bonus, pretty sick stuff