Horses vs Swords

[Stalker0]

I really don't know if this poll requires a massive change, I think its a bit soon. Here are some reasons:

1) Horses have just gotten a significant boost compared to swords already with the strength bonus. I don't think people have gotten to appreciate that yet.

2) The new pillage rules favor horses. Horses can move in and pillage several tiles for big healing if they need to. Swords can't do the same.

3) The city penalty is not as big a deal as people give it credit for. Cities don't do the big damage to my units, ranged units do. Horses are better than swords at tanking ranged damage on open terrain, and can save themselves if they get too low on hp while swords can have trouble retreating.

4) Horses get flanking bonuses much easier than swords. Time and Time again I find them dominant on the open field compared to sword units, and that was before the strength bonus.

5) The horse resource is better than iron because of the circus.

6) Horse units can reinforce an army 1.5-2 times as quick as sword units.



I can understand that people aren't using horses as much as swords...but I wonder if that is due to old habits moreso than the current balance. I remember my initial comments about melee naval units when the first changes were made....I didn't think it was strong enough...which was due to ignorance using them. Once I made a concerted effort to add them to my playstyle I realized how crazy strong they are.

I wonder if horses fall into a similar area.

 

[mystikx21]

5) Doesn't really have much to do with the units so much as your economy/happiness. You'll probably hook both up as soon as possible and horses are (usually) visible and useful sooner anyway that you wouldn't be competing over which to use first.

I'm in agreement though that horses are have very good uses alongside swords, especially with the changes to the stable and past changes to strength.

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree it takes time to adjust strategies. However, recent changes to the stable and horse units affected all horses as a whole, not chariots specifically. I think we need targeted changes to solve the chariot problem highlighted by the least useful early unit poll, which showed 2 out of 3 players avoid chariots.

In short, the plan is:

• Move a few things to chariot-line techs
• +2 chariots, upgrade to horsemen
• +1 knights (unrelated fix for a mistake regarding horseman vs knight percentages)

I don't think those are massive changes.

 

[Stalker0]

Revised plan again:

• 20% for Mounted with Stable (was 10%).
• Chariots upgrade to Horsemen (was Knights).
• Chariot equal to Bowmen (was halfway between Archers and Bowmen).
• Horsemen 15% higher than swordsmen (unchanged).
• Knights 15% higher than longswords (was 10%).
• Chop Forest unlocks with Animal Husbandry (was Mining).
• Lumbermills unlock with The Wheel (was Iron Working).
• Villages unlock with Trade (was Pottery)
• Heroic Epic unlocks with Horseback Riding (was Iron Working).

This is what I referred to as far as "massive changes"

 

[Thalassicus]

That is the plan I summarized in the post above.

In other words...

Chariots are the main problem. The previous changes affected all horse units equally, not chariot-v-horseman balance specifically. I'm aiming new changes to directly improve chariots. They will have higher strength, upgrade to horsemen, and techs in their vicinity are more important.

 

[Hawawaa]

Thal- I would love those changes.

 

[mystikx21]

I like the stable change. Vs the blast furnace, it was just okay other than cities with numerous livestock tiles (or with a horse UU). We may even want to bring back a limitation on where it can be built but include any livestock (functionally limiting it only in a few cities per game).
I like the village change a lot, combined with the changes to settlers especially.
Do these increases in go with cost increases too? (Chariots especially if they're at bowmen strength in the ancient era, do they stay obsolete at knights?, I'd probably go with 10 rather than 10 also).
Lumbermill, chopping, and Hero Epic moves make some sense too.

I'm fine with this overall as a result.

 

[albie_123]

Not sure chopping really needs a move, I think it would be enough without that.

 

[mitsho]

I agree, we don't need to empty the iron line totally, chopping can stay there, as jungle chopping comes later on in that line as well.

As for the other changes, I really feel like I need to try them out before being able to judge them any further

 

[Ahriman]

I think this changes too many things at once. I think upgrading to horsemen and move to strength 10 ranged attack on chariots would probably be enough. I think strength 11 might be too much for the very early game, and I think that if Chariots are militarily desirable then I don't see the need for the other changes.

Some of them also lead to odd outcomes; forest chop on the metal working line makes some sense, it doesn't really make much sense on a horse line. Similarly the Wheel and lumbermills doesn't make much sense.

Heroic epic and village shift are fine.

 

[Zaldron]

@Zaldron
Is the strategic resource the deciding factor for you between archers and chariots, or their place on the tech tree?

40% tech tree location, 60% that archers upgrade to the incredibly useful CBows while chariots (I think?) upgrade to knights two ages in the future.

 

[Thalassicus]

Do these increases in go with cost increases too?

Units cost 10 times their strength, with a few exceptions (like Machine Guns).

I'll put together an explanation of how the forest change helps horses; it would probably be easiest to think of visually.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think we associate horses with open terrain, and swords with rough terrain.

1. Swords get a defense bonus in rough terrain (unlike horses).
2. The horse movement advantage is less powerful in rough terrain.
3. The horse tech path has no rough terrain improvements.

The first two points have stronger reasons than the third. People clear land for grazing (animal husbandry). This is the main reason for Amazon deforestation. Warriors use stone axes, so we obviously have the tools before mining.

Chopping favors horse gameplay because it turns rough terrain flat. That's worse for swords, so it doesn't fit the sword tech path. It's more logical for the horse path to make land better for horses.

I would like to try this out. If it doesn't work, we can always go back to the old setup.

 

[Ahriman]

Why does knowledge of mining give us the skill to chop down trees?

Because mining means you get ores, and do metal working, and metal tools chop down trees?

 

[Thalassicus]

I believe that is equally important as domestication giving us a reason to clear forests for grazing land, so I don't think realism favors one tech over the other.

If we look at gameplay, can you think of a compelling reason moving chop-forest to horse techs will not help horses?

 

[Stalker0]

Do people actually chop trees?

I find lumbermills to be way more useful, so I only chop in very specific cases.

 

[Thalassicus]

Let's find out.

 

[Tomice]

The limited popularity of horse units may also have a very simple reason - peaceful gameplay.

Many players rely on archers in cities as their main defense, with some additional units as backup (which might be archers as well). Early game armies might often just not have the numbers to justify several different unit types. Swords or spears might also seem more appealing if you have a very passive approach to defense - fortified on rough terrain with corresponding promotions, they can last rather long, while the attacking army is constanty weakened by city and archer attacks.

Also, increasing the value of chariots should not be that difficult - with move after attack, they where considered overpowered before. If the terrain is right, they can be devastating against the AI. Considerung that Keshik's were the most popular unit in another poll (see vanilla forum), we have to check if people really dislike the improved chariots or just don't know they're mini-Keshiks in GEM.

BTW, promotion swapping is still a part of GEM, is it? Since it's rarely needed in G&K with the introduction of gatling/machine guns, I'm not sure. Are there other units than chariots/Keshiks/camel archers that switch from ranged to melee?

 

[Thalassicus]

I think the units which swap status are: chariot, keshik, camels, indian elephant, and machine gun.

 

[Tomice]

So this means yes, it's still in?