Zardnaar
Deity
Basically a world should be internally consistent with itself.
House of the Dragon (Season 1 of GoT-related series discussion)
RobAnybody
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Just as an aside, for anyone claiming no one ever actually says "it's fantasy, why are you complaining?" this is from the first few pages of this thread...
As for Daemon's "plot armor", it is a fantasy story with magic and dragons and he is main character. Heroes do heroic things. It is no different than the plot armor protecting the heroes of the Iliad/Odyssey until it is no longer needed for the story to progress. If you demand realism in your streaming watch the Ukraine videos.
In-context, that specific argument was about the application of plot armour. Specifically with regards to what was believable in terms of medieval combat. The point is that it isn't (and never has been) medieval combat, there has always been a fantastical definition to it, and this prequel in particular seems to be going all-in in establishing the heroes and villains are capable of feats long-since lost to GoT-era Westeros.
Given the context, you can't then say "look this is the type of argument applied throughout the thread", because in a different context I'd have a different argument. To stereotype every single argument or point of discussion in the thread to adhere to a single line cherrypicked out of start of the thread is your problem, and not mine.
And if you want to actually reply to my arguments, please do, but otherwise, don't bother using my arguments. I appreciate the whole time wasted, not going to bother motivation, and I don't question it. But you can't have your cake and eat it. If you're citing my arguments, actually bother to respond to them, instead of making out-of-context caricatures of them. Thanks
RobAnybody
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Of course a complaint/criticism has to originate with something specific - in this case plot armor that some found ridiculous.
What I have demonstrated is that those very specific, limited criticisms were met with a global dismissal of "it's fantasy, so shut up".
What I have demonstrated is that those very specific, limited criticisms were met with a global dismissal of "it's fantasy, so shut up".
Except all three quotes you've managed to find are all a response to the single discussion point about plot armour, and on top of that, I in no way told anybody to shut up. That's your projection, for whatever (continued) reason you feel it needs to apply.
The show isn't perfect, but I suppose there's worse in life than this ^_^
I do think that discussing plot holes, plot armor, holes in the plot armor, inconsistencies and such can be interesting. Ultimately, if you enjoy the show you should still enjoy it regardless of some others not liking this or that about it.
The pacing is rather problematic, all that said. For example, the behavioral transformation of the younger Targ kid happened literally in the space of one episode (and now the actor is gone too). Maybe they should have went with a more typical format (as in GoT) where the action starts from a point and then you have flashbacks to the past - particularly if it would help to have some events be shrouded in vagueness as to what actually happened (which, by the sound of it, is what happens in the actual book with the conflicting evidence by Mushroom and some maester or similar).
I also can't say I prefer the lack of any mystery as to who did what (eg lord Strong or the lover of the Velaryon heir). We didn't learn of important events in GoT being orchestrated until after they took place (including Red Wedding, Purple wedding).
Regarding Velaryon heir's escape, while I liked it (because I support him), again it seems rather forced and unlikely. For starters, they'd need some victim who was at least of his own height (his parents surely knew what their son looked like), and there was too little time to find such even if we assume he pre-planned this with his lover (despite it all happening in a few hours). They could at least have cut the victim's legs and hands, to make identification harder - along with burning the body.
I do think that discussing plot holes, plot armor, holes in the plot armor, inconsistencies and such can be interesting. Ultimately, if you enjoy the show you should still enjoy it regardless of some others not liking this or that about it.
The pacing is rather problematic, all that said. For example, the behavioral transformation of the younger Targ kid happened literally in the space of one episode (and now the actor is gone too). Maybe they should have went with a more typical format (as in GoT) where the action starts from a point and then you have flashbacks to the past - particularly if it would help to have some events be shrouded in vagueness as to what actually happened (which, by the sound of it, is what happens in the actual book with the conflicting evidence by Mushroom and some maester or similar).
I also can't say I prefer the lack of any mystery as to who did what (eg lord Strong or the lover of the Velaryon heir). We didn't learn of important events in GoT being orchestrated until after they took place (including Red Wedding, Purple wedding).
Regarding Velaryon heir's escape, while I liked it (because I support him), again it seems rather forced and unlikely. For starters, they'd need some victim who was at least of his own height (his parents surely knew what their son looked like), and there was too little time to find such even if we assume he pre-planned this with his lover (despite it all happening in a few hours). They could at least have cut the victim's legs and hands, to make identification harder - along with burning the body.
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I mean, that was my follow-up point. One person saying "I think it's plot armour" and another saying "I think it's fantasy" is a part of a discussion. They're both just opinions on the material. Nothing necessarily wrong with either (agreement / disagreement being a separate thing hah). Claiming people are being told to shut up makes no sense, unless anyone ever disagreeing with anyone counts as being silenced.
See, if you weren't so into answering immediately, you'd have also seen the juicier bits edited into my post
That's fair. I am certainly addressing what in my view are two different facets of this particular debate. Your specific argument as well as arguments that are more generally, in my view, similar to the type of argument you are making. I understand fully that this is not the position you are taking in that regard and I don't expect you to defend a position that you have not taken. I'm discussing the position, not you and I am not trying to attribute the position to you specifically. I can certainly see how it came off that way and I apologize for that.
I don't think that I am misunderstanding your position here, nor am I trying to claim that you haven't adequately explained your position. On the contrary, I am saying that this position that you are taking is a very commonly articulated one. Lots of folks say exactly what you say in response to the general "Its make believe, lighten up" argument. However, what I am also saying, is that this position does not add up, and the fact that you are using non-existent hypotheticals to illustrate it just highlights this. Lois Lane never survived falling off a building unscathed.
So part of my overall point is, again, not directed at you specifically, but at this type of argument in the context of black Valeryans in HotD... Black Valeryans are NOT the same thing as Han Solo shooting lasers out of his eyes or Lois Lane falling off a building unscathed, but the folks kvetching over black Valeryans are using this same kind of argument to complain about it as if they were the same type of departure from what they regard as the "established" universe.
Another part of my point that is more specific to your argument, is that I reject the existence of the sort of linear structure that you are suggesting happens in these stories. I fully understand what you are saying happens with the stories... first the authour sets the stage and establishes "the rules" and what differs from "our world" and then we assume everything else is the same, and so on... I fully get that. What I'm saying is that is incorrect, it does not happen that way. It sounds nice, and orderly, but these stories generally just don't adhere to that format anywhere nearly as strictly or neatly as what you describe. The "rules" are much more fluid and get changed and/or adjusted for plot purposes constantly. The viewer then chooses which changes they will accept and which they will complain about, based on their own personal sensibilities and preferences. The changes that you (the royal you) accept, you sometimes don't even notice, while the ones you don't like/accept stick out like a sore thumb... but it mostly boils down to personal taste/preference rather than any objective criteria.
If that is so, it'd follow that the same is true for assessing that situation, so it is itself subjective and thus not something to juxtapose to the subjective it defines
It's quite straightforward that you could have black Velaryons, if you didn't also choose to repeat (in the show) how closely linked geneaologically they are to Targaryens. In the book (iirc) Velaryons are even whiter than snow-white Targaryens, so it can be repeated there, but shouldn't in the show's dialogue (an easy enough change to make).
The half-baked attempt to provide some close link through white wigs... was a bit on the lazy side of things. What would be wrong with black Velaryons (in the show) that simply are a bit more removed from the family tree of the Targaryens?
Not that this can be changed now. It is what it is, so personally I don't dwell on it.
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aelf
Ashen One
Nope. It was built up since he appeared (with the pig dragon incident). It's kinda obvious too.
It's fantasy, why are you complaining?
It's doubtful that, being in medieval times, they would be able to identify him using his hands and legs if they're burnt. Also, it's totally your assumption that they had too little time to find someone of similar height.
RobAnybody
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I believe we have come to, if not quite an agreement, then an understanding of each other's positions.
I'd just like to point out that what you describe above - changes that for some violate the rules while some shrug & don't care - is exactly where I totally find it OK for people to kvetch when such things happen. And OK for others to disagree & say they weren't bothered by them, particularly if they say why it didn't bother them.
To return to the original Daeron Plot Armor thing that started all this: I believe it was @aelf who responded to the initial specific complaint with a very reasoned take that archers often fired en masse & could quite easily miss a single bobbing & weaving target (come on, Rickon! zig-zag!). I found that a persuasive response myself. I simply didn't appreciate the variations on "it's fantasy, there's dragons, here's how you ought to feel" responses (which I quoted above) that occurred ITT.
Cheers!
Finally finished Ep 7. Excellent. Finally we have a real Game of Thrones show going. Took them long enough. Its still super dark with not nearly enough levity, but at least its spicy and interesting now. I think Ep 6 is where they turned the corner, but this is now a proper GoT show.
Good stories take the time to build and if this one is going to be more than a few seasons, it needs a good foundation.
Zardnaar
Deity
Just finished season 3 of GoT.
Watching them side by side.
HotD not as good as S1-4. It's not to far short of S1 vs S1 imho.
Enjoying it and it's got good potential.
Not really fair comparing it to peak GiT though. There's no Tyrion or Tywin equivalent yet. King won't last much longer and the new actors are settling in.
Watching them side by side.
HotD not as good as S1-4. It's not to far short of S1 vs S1 imho.
Enjoying it and it's got good potential.
Not really fair comparing it to peak GiT though. There's no Tyrion or Tywin equivalent yet. King won't last much longer and the new actors are settling in.
And some of them have more than 2 episodes to do that ^_^
GoT had me hooked... HOOKED I tells ya, from Ep 1... right from the first scene I was enthralled. But I do agree that the foundations need to be set and depending on the particulars of the story, those foundation pillars may need to be dug deeper. One example of this that springs to mind that I've mentioned before is the show Dark Matter... the first episode is an awful, tedious slog that is essentially unbearable... but it is absolutely essential to the show, and if you can just tough it out through that terrible first episode, you are in for a spectacular treat of a show, but you can't skip it, because if you skip the first episode, the rest of the show will have no meaning.
The Game of Thrones, the first of its name, was new enough and fresh enough to capture an audience right away, in addition, it had the added advantage of a huge book readership who longed to see the books on the screen.
Zardnaar
Deity
When I watch GoT first time I hadn't read the books.
It hooked me from the first episode.
It hooked me from the first episode.
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