How best to push a neighbor into DoWing you?

[Cromagnus]

So, I want to take my neighbor's capitol, but I don't want the big diplo hit. If I understand how things work, it should be possible. If I only take one city and never refuse a peace treaty, and didn't start the war myself, there should be little diplomatic penalty, yes?

So, how best to go about it? How do I make him DoW me?

Forward-settling obviously. Refusing to stop settling near them. Getting caught spying on them. Refusing to stop. All helpful.

Telling them not to spy on you or settle near you. Buying tiles near them. Refusing to stop buying tiles near them. All good!

Denouncing them helps but maybe it's risky, because if someone else becomes their friend, they'll hate you for denouncing their friend. Maybe still worth it?

The question is, will this ever push them into a war? Or is leader personality going to overrule this?

Is this even a viable idea? I've tried it before and it rarely pushes someone into a DoW.

 

[Keirador]

DoWing is not what gives you the biggest diplo hit, taking cities is. You can take just his capital and be OK. The biggest thing is to get support from other nations before DoWing. Civs that are your friends or who are already at war with your target won't care.

 

[Deau]

Sell or gift most of your units to CSs and denounce him. Rebuild/buy units after he DoWs...

You need at least to have a big negative diplo with the civ as well as lower military than his or than his+whoever else hates you that he can join a war with.

Stealing land with a GG also helps a lot with dropping diplo low enough if you are already lower on military

 

[joshua43214]

The trick is to have a weak army. They will not DoW if you have a large army unless they are militant to begin with.

Then just do everything you can to irritate them and eventually they will DoW.

But, as keirador noted, there is no diplo hit for DoW's. I will sometimes repeatedly DoW my neighbor to steal workers, and then settlers. When I see a settler headed my way, I DoW and get a free worker

 

[comatosedragon]

When I want to do this, I start by demanding they not settle new cities near me. Then a turn or two later I will demand something outrageous, like all their GPT and all Resources. Make friends with their enemies, spread your religion to their cities (especially if they have their own) then denounce. (I NEVER make A DOF with anyone I share borders with). As long as you don't have #1 military, they will probably declare before too long.

 

[MarshalN]

Steal tiles with citadel seems to help piss them off too

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

Steal tiles with citadel seems to help piss them off too

^ THIS! it drives them bonkers. Try to get a resource in the land grab.

as well as everything else that has been mentioned. Especialy the bit about having a weaker army. If you have tons of units getting dowed is less likely.

gift units away to city states while keeping your best defensive units. if the city states are close to the enemy and allied with you, they can do a lot of damage and cause major distractions to the AI.

when the war comes, your defensive unit can hold the line for a few turns while you hard build a few more. Rush a couple of units and the war should go well in your favor.

 

[dragonxxx]

Why don't you just DOW em? Gifting your units to CS so you weaken your army sounds like a very stupid idea tbh. What if that same CIV allies that CS before dowing you?

 

[WarIsPeace]

Prophet bombing your neighbor's capital (assuming s/he has a religion) will definitely damage relations.

But in general, I've found I can only slightly influence an AI's decision to DOW me.

 

[Octonde]

Don't forget about the world congress. Sometimes a luxury ban can hit only them. An embargo may work if they are short on trading partners. Other votes may anger them, but the AI often go together, so something like sciences funding will be unpopular with many enemies that you're not trying to make.

You may find that a couple declarations of friendship are just the diplomatic boost you need. First, make one with your enemy; do not denounce them. When they inevitably denounce you, then they become the backtabber. Then make friendships with their enemies.

 

[Cromagnus]

The trick is to have a weak army. They will not DoW if you have a large army unless they are militant to begin with.

Then just do everything you can to irritate them and eventually they will DoW.

But, as keirador noted, there is no diplo hit for DoW's. I will sometimes repeatedly DoW my neighbor to steal workers, and then settlers. When I see a settler headed my way, I DoW and get a free worker

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. I still have it in my head that 2 DoW's makes everyone hate you, but it's really capturing cities that makes people hate you. Also, does razing make people hate you more/less than puppeting?

 

[Deau]

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. I still have it in my head that 2 DoW's makes everyone hate you, but it's really capturing cities that makes people hate you. Also, does razing make people hate you more/less than puppeting?

No, it was an incorrect statement from Josh. Bad wording.

There is a penalty for DoWs. I have never dug to figure out how it's implemented but the first one is extremely forgiving whereas the second one is driving AIs insane and if you have the bad luck to catch one or two denounce from 2 DoWs (without taking any cities, just some deceptive neighbors for example), 2 DoWs alone can keep you from getting DoFs for a while.

If DoWs gave you no diplo penalty, I'd DoW 2 AIs and a CS before T40 on every single game to steal workers and make peace once I have 5-6 of them before settling 2nd city. Truth is, the second one, even if you don't cause any real harm is still very diplo pricy.

 

[Cromagnus]

Right. So there might still be justification. If you can get a neighbor to DoW you, as long as you don't take a city, if you can benefit from that war (by stealing workers, or pillaging, getting good peace terms, etc.) it might be a valid strategy to try to antagonize someone into attacking you, but only if other people hate them. Otherwise when they denounce you you'll lose faction with other civs...

As far as being militarily weak, I can see some ways to make it work. Trick them into DoWing, then buy units and complete Terracotta Army, or move all your troops far away, then rush them back along the roads... assuming the AI recognizes an undefended flank...

Just curious...

 

[joshua43214]

No, it was an incorrect statement from Josh. Bad wording.

There is a penalty for DoWs. I have never dug to figure out how it's implemented but the first one is extremely forgiving whereas the second one is driving AIs insane and if you have the bad luck to catch one or two denounce from 2 DoWs (without taking any cities, just some deceptive neighbors for example), 2 DoWs alone can keep you from getting DoFs for a while.

If DoWs gave you no diplo penalty, I'd DoW 2 AIs and a CS before T40 on every single game to steal workers and make peace once I have 5-6 of them before settling 2nd city. Truth is, the second one, even if you don't cause any real harm is still very diplo pricy.

hmmm,

I never seem to get an appreciable diplo hit from the 2nd or third DoW. I just played a game where I DoW'd Boudica 3 times, Egypt once, and stole a CS worker but still got early DoF's. I seem to get the strongest diplo hit from DoWing CS's. Maybe its just the flavor of the civs at the time, I have not paid super close attention. If I can get free workers peacefully I try to do that, but I see no reason to let the AI forward settle on me when it will lead to war anyway. Immortal worker stealing comes much later than on Deity (~T25-30), so I will always have met a number of civs by the time I DoW and folks have had a good chance to meet each other. Some games I get no early DoF's even when I settle away from the AI slowly, and others I get a huge love fest even when I do multiple DoW's and settle rapidly. Getting a TR out seems to have a greater impact in DoF's than DoW's.

My understanding is that BNW removed the strong diplo hit for DoWing and made the hit for capturing cities.

 

[Tabarnak]

Sometimes if you ask for absurd demands like cities or gold for nothing in return he will be pissed off and DoW you. But he needs to be at least guarded or hostile.

But usually you should DoW him unless you made a DoF...seems contradictory though. If you plan to DoW him you should not DoF him

 

[Tarvok]

There's probably an element of who the target is, as well. In my current game, Temujin DOWed me once, but never really sent anything against me (Vienna also declared, and I killed a few of her units). Then there was a period of peace, during which the Mongols and Vienna were pretty much constantly at war, but everyone else was at peace, and no cities changed hands. Then the Mongols made peace with Vienna, moved an army on to my doorstep, and declared war against me a second time.

I turned his army back, made a first unsuccessful bid against one of his cities, fell back to a defensive line where I eliminated a second Mongol army (smaller than the first), then moved in and took one of his cities. I refused several peace treaties on the way, and the treaty I finally did sign got me a second Mongol city.

So far as I can tell, I haven't taken a single diplomatic hit during the whole thing. Nobody considers me a "warmongering menace to the world."

 

[isau]

Figure out which other civ you want to preserve relations with. Go to your target and offer him all the GPT and resources s/he wants to declare war on the person you're trying to keep favorable with. Then a few turns later, declare on your intended target. Now you and the ally you wanted are in a war together. You may get a "We fought together against a mutual enemy" bonus. Your trade deals are broken when you declare war so you get all your resources back.

Moreover, if the city you want isn't the capital, don't take it by force. Pillage all the resources, kill all the units, and demand it in a peace deal.

 

[kb27787]

I have a surefire way...
Go find another friend (not your neighbor) and set up a defensive pact.
Bribe your neighbor to DoW that friend (do not offer any lump sums but feel free to give him all your luxes and gpt)

Presto! You are now at war with that neighbor, and the lux/gpt trades are immediately cancelled!

 

[Cromagnus]

Figure out which other civ you want to preserve relations with. Go to your target and offer him all the GPT and resources s/he wants to declare war on the person you're trying to keep favorable with. Then a few turns later, declare on your intended target. Now you and the ally you wanted are in a war together. You may get a "We fought together against a mutual enemy" bonus. Your trade deals are broken when you declare war so you get all your resources back.

Moreover, if the city you want isn't the capital, don't take it by force. Pillage all the resources, kill all the units, and demand it in a peace deal.

Not bad, not bad!

 

[redwings1340]

taking cities is far more damaging diplomatically than declaring war. If you want to go to war, then go to war. AIs aren't always mentally stable, which means you may be able to goad them in to war, but if you can't (and sometimes it will just not happen), you're wasting turns with a large unit maintenance and nothing to do with it. If the civ is friends with other civs then them denouncing you will also bring you down diplomatically, and if they are hated upon by other civs, there's no real point in caring about what they think (taking cities is the only penalty that would matter in this case).

Also, to avoid a diplo hit, try taking cities through peace deals instead of through conquest (unless you're Assyria). The 50% population loss is also negated this way, so that's really awesome!