How can I become a voluntary vassal?

[lunker]

I remember the AI would never refuse vassalage in the past. Now I can't seem to get it no matter what. I'm fairly certain that I always turn on "Allow Human Vassalage". What happened?

 

[Moi Magnus]

Are you at war ?
Voluntary vassalage is no longer possible when at war.
(You have to capitulate to your opponent, you cannot "capitulate" the to an ally)

 

[lunker]

I was not at war during that time. In fact I think I wanted to vassalise myself because I was afraid of going to war.

Defensive pacts are nice in the short-term but sometimes I want something more binding.

 

[Enginseer]

That's because the deal for human vassalage got patched.

The AI always accepted when their military can extend to you, they'll protect you for free because you can give them bonuses. Turns out that's exploitable for a CV and an SV. Also allows you to start denouncing enemies and getting your master into big heaps of trouble.

Now they will actually consider if they actually want to extend their military to you, check your global relations, your relationship with them, your yields if they out-yield them(they prefer if you are competing with them equally on yields than if you are actually low-yields!).

It's not as easier as past times.

 

[lunker]

That's because the deal for human vassalage got patched.

The AI always accepted when their military can extend to you, they'll protect you for free because you can give them bonuses. Turns out that's exploitable for a CV and an SV. Also allows you to start denouncing enemies and getting your master into big heaps of trouble.

Now they will actually consider if they actually want to extend their military to you, check your global relations, your relationship with them, your yields if they out-yield them(they prefer if you are competing with them equally on yields than if you are actually low-yields!).

It's not as easier as past times.

In my last game I was producing massive amounts of science and culture (7 policies in freedom), while my lifelong ally, Russia was sitting at 2 rationalism. I had very good relations with her (no red modifiers with her all game and tons of green like common enemy, common denounce, trade partners), and our militaries were comparable (I had a bigger one), so I felt she had a lot to gain from me being her vassal. The deal was impossible however and it was kind of sad. Any idea what may have been preventing her from accepting?

That said, I'm on-board for less exploitability, so these changes are welcome.

 

[Enginseer]

In my last game I was producing massive amounts of science and culture (7 policies in freedom), while my lifelong ally, Russia was sitting at 2 rationalism. I had very good relations with her (no red modifiers with her all game and tons of green like common enemy, common denounce, trade partners), and our militaries were comparable (I had a bigger one), so I felt she had a lot to gain from me being her vassal. The deal was impossible however and it was kind of sad. Any idea what may have been preventing her from accepting?

That said, I'm on-board for less exploitability, so these changes are welcome.

See my explanation, but reverse.

Since your militaries are both comparable. They don't want to vassalize you because you could be building a secret army while forcing their armies to fight their wars for you. They'll only reconsider extending their military to yours if you are basically doomed if you don't have their protection. They're looking for global relations in terms of weaker vassals(hence the term vassal). If you have a ton of green like common enemy, common denounce, and trade partners then that's just asking for a good DP, RA, and DoF together not vassalization. The problem is also that you are not producing comparable yields. They do not want to vassalize someone that is snowballing in yields because vassalization isn't grabbing 20% of your yields and adding it to theirs. This 20% exist out of nowhere, so they would rather not spend more protection money for someone to keep snowballing. (lol)

 

[lunker]

See my explanation, but reverse.

Since your militaries are both comparable. They don't want to vassalize you because you could be building a secret army while forcing their armies to fight their wars for you. They'll only reconsider extending their military to yours if you are basically doomed if you don't have their protection. They're looking for global relations in terms of weaker vassals(hence the term vassal). If you have a ton of green like common enemy, common denounce, and trade partners then that's just asking for a good DP, RA, and DoF together not vassalization. The problem is also that you are not producing comparable yields. They do not want to vassalize someone that is snowballing in yields because vassalization isn't grabbing 20% of your yields and adding it to theirs. This 20% exist out of nowhere, so they would rather not spend more protection money for someone to keep snowballing. (lol)

I see. Thanks for the explanation. I will somewhat miss these situations where civs became sort of like permanent allies with vassalization.

 

[Dawnpromise]

Then what is the point of capitulation?

You seem to have described vassalation as a sort of positive 'client-state' situation where both sides benefit. In that case how do AI civs value the decision the capitulate/ be capitulated to?

 

[Enginseer]

Then what is the point of capitulation?

You seem to have described vassalation as a sort of positive 'client-state' situation where both sides benefit. In that case how do AI civs value the decision the capitulate/ be capitulated to?

Because that is exactly what vassalization is. Think Game of Throne where minor house pledge loyalty and tribute of men and troops to their master who should theoretically provide them a better protection and infrastructure. Capitulation is forcing someone to vassal and this can be easy as getting 100 on your war score.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

because vassalization isn't grabbing 20% of your yields and adding it to theirs. This 20% exist out of nowhere

Can you explain this further please?

 

[SLGray]

Because that is exactly what vassalization is. Think Game of Throne where minor house pledge loyalty and tribute of men and troops to their master who should theoretically provide them a better protection and infrastructure. Capitulation is forcing someone to vassal and this can be easy as getting 100 on your war score.

Are you trying to explain feudalism?

 

[black213]

Can you explain this further please?

You receive 20% of your vassal's culture and science, but it's not subtracted from theirs.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

You receive 20% of your vassal's culture and science, but it's not subtracted from theirs.

Yeah that's what I thought. But wouldn't you want to take a voluntary vassal that's snowballing in yields if he's been peaceful the whole game?

 

[Moi Magnus]

Balance question : Why does the 20% is not substraced from their ?
It would be far more easier to balance volontary vassalage if it had a real cost for the vassal.

 

[Enginseer]

Yeah that's what I thought. But wouldn't you want to take a voluntary vassal that's snowballing in yields if he's been peaceful the whole game?

because he is snowballing at 100% of his yields and you his 20%. Not exactly a good deal.