How did the Chinese know Latin and Russian?

[Fox Mccloud]

I've wondered this for a while, but only now I thought of posting here. According to wikipedia:

It is fair enough to state that the contemporary empires of the Han Dynasty and the Roman Empire were the two superpowers of the known world. Several Roman embassies to China are recounted in Chinese history, starting with a Hou Hanshu (History of the Later Han) account of a Roman convoy set out by emperor Antoninus Pius that reached the Chinese capital Luoyang in 166 and was greeted by Emperor Huan.

So, How did the Roman envoy explain the situation? How did they communicate? How did the Russians communicate with them when they first discovered China?

Also, another question, I've watched a show about Qin, "the first emperor of China." and I've wondered how he was first when they had the Shang, Zhou, and Xia dynasties before them.

 

[Verbose]

So, How did the Roman envoy explain the situation? How did they communicate? How did the Russians communicate with them when they first discovered China?

The Romans? Probably through Persian interpreters or similar.

And I'd assume the same would work for the Russians.

There were plenty of intermediary peoples able to speak both languages.

 

[Jeff Yu]

I've wondered this for a while, but only now I thought of posting here. According to wikipedia:




So, How did the Roman envoy explain the situation? How did they communicate? How did the Russians communicate with them when they first discovered China?

Also, another question, I've watched a show about Qin, "the first emperor of China." and I've wondered how he was first when they had the Shang, Zhou, and Xia dynasties before them.

For ancient China-Rome contacts, I would assume that the Romans didn't know any Chinese and the Chinese didn't know any Latin. Communication would probably have taken place through some intermediaries like Persians, which likely both peoples would have translators for.

For communication with the Russians, it was done in Latin. By that time, the Chinese already knew (or knew of) Latin, from the Portuguese. The earliest Europeans in China were the Jesuits from Portugul, who attempted to spread Christianity into China. They worked their way into the good graces of the Chinese government, and some of them, like Mateo Ricci, actually achieved pretty high positions in the Qing government, and they introduced some western technologies, like improved cannon casting, and more accurate astronomical calculations (for use in computing the Chinese calender).

 

[silver 2039]

For ancient China-Rome contacts, I would assume that the Romans didn't know any Chinese and the Chinese didn't know any Latin. Communication would probably have taken place through some intermediaries like Persians, which likely both peoples would have translators for.

The trade between Rome and China was largely conducted with Parthia as a middleman. So it was'nt really nessecary for Romans to know Chinese or Chinese to know Latin. The Parthians would have needed to know both.

 

[Uiler]

He called *himself* the First Emperor of China - quite literally the name he gave himself was Qin (the name of his kingdom) First Huang-di. Huang-di was made up by him from the names of the legendary initial rulers of the Chinese. It now means "emperor" but he was the first one to use it. Since he was the one who invented the word it is obvious that the rulers of the Shang, Zhou etc. could not have been "Huang di" (I'm not sure what exact title they had). A lot of people agree with him because he was the first one to really centralise power. Before power was a lot more decentralised. You had a supreme ruler but a whole lot of kings as well. The centralised political system with provinces and governors instead of kingdoms and kings he set up survived until the 20th century.

Incidentally the Jade Seal he had made (the Emperor's Jade Seal signified Royal Authority - whoever had the Jade Seal could sign decrees with all the authority of the Emperor) which was supposedly made from a piece of jade found in a meteorite was inherited by the Han and was fought over a bit in the Three Kingdoms era at the fall of the Han. I'm not sure where it ended up. I think Wei and Jin (the victors of the Three Kingdoms era) ended up with it, and then it got passed around a bit and well, they lost track of it...A pity really. If anyone could find it (it has some quite distinctive markings) it would be one of the biggest archaelogical finds. Of course, it supposedly has some supernatural powers as well...

Also, another question, I've watched a show about Qin, "the first emperor of China." and I've wondered how he was first when they had the Shang, Zhou, and Xia dynasties before them.

 

[Dann]

...Since he was the one who invented the word it is obvious that the rulers of the Shang, Zhou etc. could not have been "Huang di" (I'm not sure what exact title they had)...

Historical Chinese rulers prior to the Qin Empire were simply titled "Wang" - meaning King. There were, however, legendary mythological rulers that were supposed to have ruled earlier than the Xia with titles like "Huang" and "Di". It is from these than Qin Shih Huang got his inspiration for his title, as he considered himself even greater than the ancient sage-kings.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Incidentally the Jade Seal he had made (the Emperor's Jade Seal signified Royal Authority - whoever had the Jade Seal could sign decrees with all the authority of the Emperor) which was supposedly made from a piece of jade found in a meteorite was inherited by the Han and was fought over a bit in the Three Kingdoms era at the fall of the Han. I'm not sure where it ended up. I think Wei and Jin (the victors of the Three Kingdoms era) ended up with it, and then it got passed around a bit and well, they lost track of it...A pity really. If anyone could find it (it has some quite distinctive markings) it would be one of the biggest archaelogical finds. Of course, it supposedly has some supernatural powers as well...

The Jade Seal is still around. The Tang and Song dynasty emperors had possession of it, as did the Mongols when they took over. After they were defeated, they fled back to Mongolia, and the Ming dynasty never held it. The Mongols later submitted themselves to the Qing, and acknowledged the Qing emperors as "Great Khan", so they surrendered the Jade Seal to them. The Jade Seal was held by the KMT until they had to flee the mainland, and it now lies in the National Palace Museum in Taipei.

 

[Uiler]

Really? I was under the impression that it was lost. Are you sure it's the same Jade Seal that the First Emperor had made?

The Jade Seal is still around. The Tang and Song dynasty emperors had possession of it, as did the Mongols when they took over. After they were defeated, they fled back to Mongolia, and the Ming dynasty never held it. The Mongols later submitted themselves to the Qing, and acknowledged the Qing emperors as "Great Khan", so they surrendered the Jade Seal to them. The Jade Seal was held by the KMT until they had to flee the mainland, and it now lies in the National Palace Museum in Taipei.

 

[plarq]

The jade seal which is the symbol of Chinese Dynasties? Rumor said it's lost during Mongolian Conquest when the ministers and the child emperor commited suicide in Guangdong waters.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Romans and Chinese sent traders to each others nation, and I'm sure, as stated by Verbose, that there were Persian traders who spoke both languages. Curiosity pushed the Chinese to want to learn these languages.

And the Chinese could very well have gotten Russian from the Mongols (those that lived in northern Mongolia). And just like with Latin, they wanted to learn that mysterious language.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

That particular Roman 'embassy' went to China thru the sea route i.e. from India then to SE Asia before going to China. IIRC (vaguely) they had a few interpreters - some Indians and South-east Asians. The Indians interpretated betw the Romans and the SE Asians, and the SE Asians passed on the msg to the Chinese.

Though in all probability, this was not a real, official Roman embassy. More likely a bunch of merchants who used China's tributary system to trade - they had picked up Indian and SE Asian produce that were counted as their tributary goods.

Later on, there're were definite links betw the Byzantines and the Chinese, particularly during the time when Tang armies were ranging thru Central Asia and Byzantine and Chinese geo-political interests coincided with the sudden appearance of the Arab onslaught.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I have no doubt whatsoever that the Romans and Chinese sent traders to each others nation, and I'm sure, as stated by Verbose, that there were Persian traders who spoke both languages. Curiosity pushed the Chinese to want to learn these languages.

And the Chinese could very well have gotten Russian from the Mongols (those that lived in northern Mongolia). And just like with Latin, they wanted to learn that mysterious language.

Not really. There wasn't really a practical reason for Chinese to learn Latin - so very very few did. In fact, I know of no one. It would be an unChinese thing to do, since we view outselves as the (only) civilised world and treat all others as barbarians. There's no scholarship on things foreign except for some descriptive treatises.

E.g. when the Jesuits went to China in the late Ming and Qing dynasties, they were the ones who learned Chinese and communicated as so with the citizens of the empire. Not the other way round.

Besides at this juncture (when the Romans still existed), Chinese trade overseas were usually carried by foreigners (Central Asians, Persians, Arabs, Indians etc). Mercantilism and trading were frowned upon, by the official Confucian social ideology within the empire. Merchants were viewed as parasites and occupied the lowest rung in the social order (officially - later on, it's possible to 'buy' into the scholar-official or gentry-peasantry ranks). There're little reason for Chinese to leave the empire. In fact, the govt viewed Chinese who went overseas as semi-traitors.

OTOH, the Russians were classified together with the steppe horsemen (Mongols etc) and were viewed as potentially dangerous foes since they came overland. Early on, I doubted the Chinese even understood that the Russians were from the same Europe as the English, Dutch etc who were arriving fr the sea (and were treated as tributary states ). Russians and Qing tribal auxilliaries actually clashed in the far northern reaches of Manchuria. Later, Qing bannermen systematically wiped out Russian forts and settlements along the Amur.

Eventually to settle the Mongol question, the Russians and the Qing signed the Treaty of Nerchinsk (1680s or so). A 'Russian hostel' was established in Beijing and Chinese officials in the bureau that governed steppe affairs were sent to Russia to learn the language.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The jade seal which is the symbol of Chinese Dynasties? Rumor said it's lost during Mongolian Conquest when the ministers and the child emperor commited suicide in Guangdong waters.

Probably a legend. The Mongol Yuan dynasty used the Imperial Seal as its own, for legitimacy. Later on, when the Mongols were driven out of China, the last Yuan emperor hid the seal in the steppes to deny it to the Ming (who had to make do with a set of 24 or so seals).

Centuries later when the Manchus conquered China, some Mongols returned it to the Qing emperor (Mongol cavalrymen served in the Qing Mongol banners).

 

[Plotinus]

The earliest Europeans in China were the Jesuits from Portugul, who attempted to spread Christianity into China. They worked their way into the good graces of the Chinese government, and some of them, like Mateo Ricci, actually achieved pretty high positions in the Qing government, and they introduced some western technologies, like improved cannon casting, and more accurate astronomical calculations (for use in computing the Chinese calender).

In fact, of course, most of the first Jesuits in China were Italian (including Ricci himself and his mentor, Valignano, although the latter never made it into the empire). The Portuguese were the dominant European colonial power in this region, but the Chinese didn't trust them. Not that they trusted any westerners, particularly, which is why Ricci and co had to dress as Chinese scholars and present themselves as humble seekers after knowledge.

Also, as I understand it, trade along the Silk Road really got going in the sixth and seventh centuries, so if the Chinese had communicated with the Romans in their own language, it would have been Greek rather than Latin.

 

[Dell19]

Eventually to settle the Mongol question, the Russians and the Qing signed the Treaty of Nerchinsk (1680s or so). A 'Russian hostel' was established in Beijing and Chinese officials in the bureau that governed steppe affairs were sent to Russia to learn the language.

The first Russian event involving China on EU2 desribes how on first contact the Chinese thought the Russians were attempting to become Vassals and how the Russians had no way of responding so they just ignored the payments until the later treaty was established (I didn't sign it )

 

[Verbose]

Not really. There wasn't really a practical reason for Chinese to learn Latin - so very very few did. In fact, I know of no one. It would be an unChinese thing to do, since we view outselves as the (only) civilised world and treat all others as barbarians. There's no scholarship on things foreign except for some descriptive treatises.

Un-Chinese for scholars for sure.

There seems to have been Chinese merchants who deigned to learn foreign languages.

I've come across an account of medieval Persians reaction to the Chinese writing system.
Apparently a literate Chinese merchant caught a public sermon somewhere in Persia.
Using this neat writing system of the Chinese, he must have translated the Persian into Chinese as he simultaneously copied it down in paper. He then could read it back verbatim to his astonished Persian friends.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well, in which case, then there'd hardly be any official record of it from the Chinese side, since merchants aren't very high up in the social hierarchy.

 

[Dann]

...Apparently a literate Chinese merchant caught a public sermon somewhere in Persia.
Using this neat writing system of the Chinese, he must have translated the Persian into Chinese as he simultaneously copied it down in paper. He then could read it back verbatim to his astonished Persian friends.

Yes it can be done, and to any language too. But the merchant wasn't translating it into Chinese. He was merely substituting Chinese characters for the sounds he heard. His record, when read out loud, would sound identical to the Persian original, but would be gibberish to even himself.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

Not really. There wasn't really a practical reason for Chinese to learn Latin - so very very few did. In fact, I know of no one. It would be an unChinese thing to do, since we view outselves as the (only) civilised world and treat all others as barbarians. There's no scholarship on things foreign except for some descriptive treatises.

According to Wikipedia, the Chinese were so impressed with the Roman empire, they did count them as the only other civilized nation. They even called it "Da Qin" (大秦, Great Qin) naming it after their first Chinese dynasty. I think some Chinese would go to Rome as ambassadors, and the Romans would do the same and learn eachother's languages. There was probably even a Latin-Chinese dictionaries at the Roman librarys.

Yes it can be done, and to any language too. But the merchant wasn't translating it into Chinese. He was merely substituting Chinese characters for the sounds he heard. His record, when read out loud, would sound identical to the Persian original, but would be gibberish to even himself.

I don't believe this. You try listening to an unknown language and try to turn it into Chinese writing. It's very hard.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

According to Wikipedia, the Chinese were so impressed with the Roman empire, they did count them as the only other civilized nation. They even called it "Da Qin" (大秦, Great Qin) naming it after their first Chinese dynasty. I think some Chinese would go to Rome as ambassadors, and the Romans would do the same and learn eachother's languages. There was probably even a Latin-Chinese dictionaries at the Roman librarys.

The Wiki isn't the most accurate of sources.

Other than rumors, Rome doesn't figure much in China's geopolitical strategy (of containing the steppe horsemen).