How do you do war in Civ3?

[justanick]

There also is the obvious motivation for war: Lack of distance. The closer you are to an AI and its capital, the more aggression by this AI is to be expected. Tiny maps can therefore increase the risk of early wars.

 

[tjs282]

So that distance-factor is based on absolute distance, rather than distance relative to map-size?

 

[Traex]

There also is the obvious motivation for war: Lack of distance. The closer you are to an AI and its capital, the more aggression by this AI is to be expected. Tiny maps can therefore increase the risk of early wars.

That's a good research article on AI attitudes. But I think there're some other factors that make them more or less likely to declare war. The war declarations while in 'Polite' stance had happened to me several times before, like when I played Regent difficulty also.
Like you mentioned my defenses and lack of distance, or perhaps my Resources/Luxuries that others don't have, or some other factors.

 

[Spoonwood]

There are instances where artillery is quite useful. Artillery helps to reduce losses by quite a margin, but it comes at the price of additional investment and unit support. Also it can increase the amount of turns till you eliminate your enemy. So while the merits of artillery are strong there are quite some circumstances where different priorities are the better choice overall. If you have to choose between 40 cavalry + 40 cannons or 60 cavalry and no cannnons, then the later tends to be better suited for a short war while the earlier is much better suited for a long war.

Artillery shine once you get artillery proper (and have rails). This past hour I've been fighting some on Emperor level, and I have an SGL, so I haven't charged with elites, nor do I have any armies. But, I've killed a few cities with infantry using artillery proper and veteran cavalry. According to the combat calculator, it's a 67.5% chance of winning with a veteran cavalry vs. an infantry with 1 hitpoint on flatland fortified in a city. If that's a metropolis or AI capital instead, the probably still ends up as 59.7%. If it's a metropolis on a hill, it's still 54.6%. So, if you redline any infantry proper before charging ahead, in any case, it seems that you end up favored if you use veteran cavalry or better.

Hence, as the saying goes, God fights on the side with the best artillery.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

One thing is crucial: Embassies. Without them AI is more likely to attack. This can make the very early game a more delicate balance than later phases of the game.

I was unaware of this. It seems, then, that gold permitting we should establish embassies ASAP.

 

[justanick]

So that distance-factor is based on absolute distance, rather than distance relative to map-size?

I donnot know how it works exactly, but it seems to be closer to absolute distance.

 

[Traex]

Artillery shine once you get artillery proper (and have rails). This past hour I've been fighting some on Emperor level, and I have an SGL, so I haven't charged with elites, nor do I have any armies. But, I've killed a few cities with infantry using artillery proper and veteran cavalry. According to the combat calculator, it's a 67.5% chance of winning with a veteran cavalry vs. an infantry with 1 hitpoint on flatland fortified in a city. If that's a metropolis or AI capital instead, the probably still ends up as 59.7%. If it's a metropolis on a hill, it's still 54.6%. So, if you redline any infantry proper before charging ahead, in any case, it seems that you end up favored if you use veteran cavalry or better.

Hence, as the saying goes, God fights on the side with the best artillery.

Hence maybe Artilleries are good if the defending units have higher defenses than our attack units. Perhaps it'd be different if our attack units have more offense than their defending units. I still don't know though I rarely used Artillery.

 

[Spoonwood]

Perhaps it'd be different if our attack units have more offense than their defending units.

They usually don't if you consider defensive fortification, landform, and city bonuses. Cavalry always have less strength than rifleman when they both have the same number of hitpoints.

I still don't know though I rarely used Artillery.

Conquering with artillery proper and rails can go very fast turn wise. I mean several cities a turn, and wars ending in under 5 turns often.

 

[justanick]

Cavalry always have less strength than rifleman when they both have the same number of hitpoints.

There however is a significant period of time between cavalry and riflemen. That is so to speak the golden age of cavalry.

After that the merits of artillery grow and artillery proper helps a lot with that. It doubles the range and compared to cannons(bombardement 8 at frequency 1) artillery proper(bombardement 12 at frequency 2) does about thrice the damage. Radar artillery(bombardement 16 at frequency 3) doubles the expected damage again.

 

[Spoonwood]

It doubles the range and compared to cannons(bombardement 8 at frequency 1) artillery proper(bombardement 12 at frequency 2) does about thrice the damage. Radar artillery(bombardement 16 at frequency 3) doubles the expected damage again.

Don't they both only bombard once per turn, but radar artillery have one extra movement point?

 

[tjs282]

Don't they both only bombard once per turn, but radar artillery have one extra movement point?

Cats have Bombard.Range.Firing-rate = 4.1.1, Move = 1
Trebs have B.R.F = 6.1.1, M = 1
Cannon have B.R.F = 8.1.1, M = 1
Arty have B.R.F = 12.2.2, M = 1
Radar Arty have B.R.F = 16.2.3, M = 2

 

[Traex]

They usually don't if you consider defensive fortification, landform, and city bonuses. Cavalry always have less strength than rifleman when they both have the same number of hitpoints.



Conquering with artillery proper and rails can go very fast turn wise. I mean several cities a turn, and wars ending in under 5 turns often.

Ok, I didn't know that becoz when I played Chieftain to Regent I'd gotten Modern armors while others only had Musketmen. So higher difficulty will change all that

 

[justanick]

Don't they both only bombard once per turn

Artillery proper can destroy 2 hitpoints per bombardement, radar artillery even 3. Of course that is only true while enough hitpoints are available for loosing.

 

[vorlon_mi]

@Traex , let's take a step back and talk about war overall, in Civ 3 Complete (sometimes called Conquests, which was the last expansion, or just C3C).

First, yes, as you go up in difficulty, the AI will get bonuses that help them research faster and improve the qualities of their armies.
Second, your gameplay style of waiting to do a big massive war with modern weapons is fine, if you find it fun. One can find good reasons for going to war sooner, to help progress towards victory.
Third, C3C has cumulative effects. Gains which you make early will pay dividends into the mid and late game.

Most often, I find that I declare war on a neighbor to get resources. The early wars (in the first 100 turns, or ancient age) are about getting access to iron or horses (if I lack them) or getting access to luxuries. As my cities grow in size, I find that I need more luxuries to keep them happy.

If I have iron, I will often build up a bunch of swordsmen and invade a neighbor that doesn't yet have them. Timing can matter a lot. As @justanick wrote, avoid half-measures.
If I have an aggressive neighbor, who declares on me, I will respond in one of two ways:
1) If I have some troops, I will concentrate my forces to repel the initial assault and then counterattack. The Civ3 AI tends to send most of its troops in the initial push.
2) If I don't have many troops -- say I was concentrating on expansion -- then I might try to wear them down and offer them gold for peace. And bring revenge later!

Overall, I use a series of wars in the first two ages to grab land and resources. By the time I get to the Industrial (3rd) age, I'm usually number one and can decide how I want to win.

 

[Spoonwood]

Overall, I use a series of wars in the first two ages to grab land and resources. By the time I get to the Industrial (3rd) age, I'm usually number one and can decide how I want to win.

I guess you don't play for 20k all that often. Because I think there's a window where that victory can close on, if one doesn't build enough culture soon enough.

 

[justanick]

First, yes, as you go up in difficulty, the AI will get bonuses that help them research faster and improve the qualities of their armies.

That while true in its essense may be technically incorrect. AI does not get a bonus on research. For AI tech costs on regent are the same as on Sid. But human research cost do increase signicantly. AI does however get extra starting units, extra free unit suppoort and discounts on shields and food for growth. In the end AI will have mildly more modern army, a much larger army while the human player is fighting higher research costs and higher corruption. Advanced players can still come out on top and up to emperor this is still somewhat easy. Demigod and deity are a bit harder, but still not too hard. Sid however is category of its own. So maybe just ignore it as those extreme figures matter little for normal gameplay.

 

[Spoonwood]

AI does however get extra starting units, extra free unit suppoort and discounts on shields and food for growth.

They do have a trade bonus, which makes it easier for them to trade for technologies from other AIs. Their extra settler(s) and/or worker(s) also help with their research soon. They don't have extra food. They have a reduced food cost for growth. But, in the end, their tech cost is the same. However, if they have 2 or 3 cities at 3700 BC instead of 1, they will research more quickly, especially since they maximize research initially until they have to pay upkeep, likely for infrastructure. So, absolute technology cost is the same, but their means to achieve that tech cost ends up enhanced on higher difficulties.

They can build units for less shields. They have less of a cost on city growth. And extra worker(s)/settler(s) may mean that they hook up strategic resources for more advanced builds earlier. The quality of any units beyond archers, warriors, and spears is not necessarily better, unlike the extra free units which make them more powerful earlier.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I guess you don't play for 20k all that often. Because I think there's a window where that victory can close on, if one doesn't build enough culture soon enough.

That's true! I can't remember ever succeeding at a 20k victory. I don't attempt it often, preferring the 100k culture victory.

 

[Traex]

OK, that is a huge mistake. Leaving despotism ASAP is what you need to do. That is best done by researching Code of Law, then philosophy and taking republic as your bonus tech.

Ok now I realize why changing gov asap is even better... Changing early game (to Republic) only takes a few turns Anarchy (I got 2-3 turns), while when I changed to Democracy last time it could take up 8 turns.

 

[WeirdoJoker]

OK, that is a huge mistake. Leaving despotism ASAP is what you need to do. That is best done by researching Code of Law, then philosophy and taking republic as your bonus tech.

Assuming, of course, that one gets Philosophy first. I always go for it, but sometimes don't make it, in which case I end up struggling - since it's an expensive tech - to trade for it.