How do YOU fight the expansion urge?

[Wodan]

It just sort of happens by itself, when I realize I'm 0% science and 200 turns to Code of Laws.

You should be running a SE (specialist economy). You can be at 0% and still have the beakers pouring in.

Wodan

 

[krozman]

So does it make sense to keeping pumping out units instead of building something like an Aqueduct (before you need one) even though you'll eventually need one (even if it isn't for another 1,000 years)?

I guess I feel my army gets to a point where I don't need more units so I switch to building buildings in all my cities. Or should I just be at war or close to war ALL the time and razing my neighbor's cities?

that depends. If you NEED units (i.e. you'll get destroyed if anyone declares war on you), then build units. However, if you've already researched metal casing, get a forge and get an aqueduct to counter balance the health problems, if necessary. Many times i'll have the aqueduct built in the city where I want a colossus, see below:

When I have marble and a 2nd city to get oracle, I use the free tech on Metal casing and get a free colossus out of it (including a VERY valuable tech to trade once you get alphabet), because if you have copper it'll be a long time before any other civ gets the tech, gets a forge built, and then has enough hammers to compete with you. And just so you know, with the research path I take, I dont have writing yet, so the Code of Laws tech isn't available yet, and I find that in many situations Metal casing is a very valuable free early tech.

Krozman

 

[krozman]

You should be running a SE (specialist economy). You can be at 0% and still have the beakers pouring in.

Wodan

This is also true. Another alternative is to get currency and sell your non valuable techs for their lump sum gold. When I get literature and i'm lucky enough to have a great engineer waiting for me to use on great library, I sell literature for 300-900 gold (on marathon), whatever they have. I focus on literature because when I get literature I go for the great artist on music (and also a head start on notre dame, if I want it). When you have such a big research time, like from literature to music, you're unable to acquire more techs to trade with the AI, and since literature cannot trade for anything the AI has straight up, (i.e. calender, monarchy) selling the tech to everyone, gettting the 1000+ gold from everyone, and running research at 100% at minus 20 per turn still allows for research while ignoring costs and not running a specialist economy. Plus, now that everyone has literature, you can trade a very valuable music for everything you're missing, which shouldn't be much even on Immortal difficulty.

Plus, some of our games we're unable to get pyramids early enough for representation, and I dont think it's feasible to do an early specalist economy without pyramids.

 

[Watiggi]

Man, after reading these posts I gotta get back into peaceful games. I rarely if ever build wonders or bother with culture (unless I have to) or religion. Don't get me wrong, I do build everything and end up with all the wonders, but I initially start with my war machine and once it's built, I tend to domestic affairs. But, my focus is always the war machine and expansion.

I might have to get back into a peaceful wonder/culture/gp/religion building game. Sounds like fun! My problem is as always: If you have an annoying neighbour, then there's only one permanant way of solving that and so I alway end up moving into a military/conquest type of game. A strong military solves all neighbour/diplomatic disputes

 

[DjPiLL]

I think my biggest problem is that I'm too much of a builder (as Pete2006 pointed out). I build unecessary building just so each city has all buildings. I need to focus on what I need, not having each city jammed with all buildings!

Thanks again for the advice everyone.

I had the same problem and corrected it.

I am the type of player that likes to run at 100% science when i can (and if I can). I used religion to supply me with all the gold I needed.

So the problem I was having... I was building marketplaces and banks in all my cities... even though most of them were generating no gold (due to 100% science). The only city that was generating gold was my holy city. So i only built the "gold" improvements there. I would also send all my great merchants and prophets there to act as super specialists since both of those gave gold and it was easier to have one "money specialized city".

So I improved my game. Instead of building unncessary banks and marketplaces... i built units and improved my 'warmonging' skills.


Other example used.... built many unnecessary colliseums when I had way more happy people than angry. Real dumb.

 

[Meatbuster]

In one of my recent Monarch games, I expanded slowly (no early chop rush even, because I went for a religion) and around 0 AD I only built one city but took over a neighbor's 2 cities and destroyed the rest of his cities (making a total of 4 cities in my empire). For some reason, I'm still at the top of the scoreboard, ahead in tech, and still making money at 70% science.

EDIT: I seem to suck at peaceful games. Especially if I build more than the wonders I need, I always lose.

I also fall into the trap of building unnecessary buildings, so I've been thinking: how much that Library's +25% beakers will get me in a size 2-3 city. Apparently the bonuses aren't too great, and building 4 archers or 2 axes in place of that lib may have been better... unless the lib is for a much needed cultural expansion to take resources (when a religion or monument or theater isn't available).

 

[cabert]

some buildings have a specific value regardless of the % bonus they give.
- Granary is needed almost everywhere (only exception is a late game captured city), because growth = power
- markets, forges give % bonus, right but they also give happiness bonus with the right ressources + you need 6 forges to build iron works
- theaters are the cheapest culture buildings for creative leader + happiness bonus for everyone+ you need 6 to build globe theater.
- library : when you don't have mysticism or when you already know calendar, the library is the first culture building available (no need to wait for a religion)+it is required for universities, and you need 6 universities for oxford

My point is not to say that you need a market, a forge, a library, a theater everywhere. It's to show that there are different reasons to build some of them, and going into no building mode can be almost as bad as too many building (not quite as bad, since you die from building too many = not enough units)

 

[InFlux5]

One thing that's being overlooked is that militaries cost money too, especially when you have few cities to support your units. If over-expansion doesn't stifle my economy, unit support usually will. So whether I expand or build more units my economy will suffer. The only option left is to build city improvements, which are often not needed (and there often aren't very many to build in the early game.)

So I guess the main question for me is: what's the fastest way to get your economy humming in the early game? (I play on Monarch.) Pottery is always a high priority tech for me, and I spam cottages in every game; but it's not enough. Getting CoL and raising a few Courthouses always seems like a daunting task; my non-core cities take forever to build them. And it's really the period prior to Courthouses that gives me the most trouble; my cottages aren't developed and city maintenance prevents more expansion.

The only other option I see to jump-start your early economy is to found a religion and get a Great Prophet ASAP. Any other suggestions besides this and cottage spam (which isn't getting me very far)?

 

[wioneo]

Seeing all of you peaceful people is making me think. I usually get bored of the game after my neighbours and at least on Civ on the other continent is dead, and I usually have 100 or so years before my cities grow enough for the population(I'm well over land). I never go for conquest, though. I get lonely I need some builder practice...

 

[cabert]

One thing that's being overlooked is that militaries cost money too, especially when you have few cities to support your units. If over-expansion doesn't stifle my economy, unit support usually will. So whether I expand or build more units my economy will suffer. The only option left is to build city improvements, which are often not needed (and there often aren't very many to build in the early game.)

The other option is to use your military

 

[InFlux5]

The other option is to use your military

That's not gonna transform my economy from deficit to surplus. The income from pillaging and razing is pretty small in the early game.... And I'm certainly not going to take more cities; that would just make the problem worse.

 

[orgonebox]

Here's a different scenario, although common: I'm playing a monarch huge fractal game, 14 civs, as Elizabeth, going for a cultural victory, space race and diplo vics turned off. Basically, as far as I can tell, the whole thing is fracked. I've been at war for almost 1000 years straight, and it's now 1675. Every civ but four have declared war on me. Most of my production that would have gone toward culture or cultural buildings has been focused on units. I've finally acquired rifling, but at least half the other civs are four or five techs ahead of me. Now I have to run at 0% science and culture until my maces and pikes are upgraded. Any advice on what to do to pull this one out of the hole? I'd post a save file were I at the computer I on which I play the game, but how do I stop these constant wars?

 

[Wodan]

Here's a different scenario, although common: I'm playing a monarch huge fractal game, 14 civs, as Elizabeth, going for a cultural victory, space race and diplo vics turned off. Basically, as far as I can tell, the whole thing is fracked. I've been at war for almost 1000 years straight, and it's now 1675. Every civ but four have declared war on me. Most of my production that would have gone toward culture or cultural buildings has been focused on units. I've finally acquired rifling, but at least half the other civs are four or five techs ahead of me. Now I have to run at 0% science and culture until my maces and pikes are upgraded. Any advice on what to do to pull this one out of the hole? I'd post a save file were I at the computer I on which I play the game, but how do I stop these constant wars?

It shouldn't be too difficult to get a timed victory, if you're halfway pursuing a cultural you should have a pretty good score.

Wodan

 

[pukii]

i want to complain that the AIs understanding of loyality is a wicked one. (at least on monarch & epic)

in the earlier ages you dont want to be rushed by every civ because they have their crazy archers ready to crush your - 2 archer and one warrior and maybe one axeman - government so you should obey their stupid tributes.
after you did so many times, one could think you are best buddies?
no of course not.

that is because some lunatic civ ( alex monty toku or crazy french ) declares war to you, in the fights you have bad luck and one or two units die, the power graph drops for you and suddenly you are an easy treasure for the other civs.

so the consequence is not only that you have very stressy 2 or 3 guys picking on you, no, but i also noticed that all my heroic "giveaways" and "cooperation" to cancel deals with other civs that give you +1 in the diplo are away ! and the best thing is that i didnt even declare the war myself !

so whenever you are in war with another civ you can quite forget getting their votes in a diplo victory. the only "good" thing is that you dont get the -1 penalty "you declared war on our friend". probably you will have many -1 already because of "blabla didnt help in wartimes"

and about the topic with the expansion urge: i cant help myself i have to keep cities that are at my cultural border! i feel like it wont take whole 4 turns and suddenly a foreign settler pops up and builds a stinky city which will annoy you sometime and/or overlap your precious resources. nono, you must keep the city and if its because of the reason that another one doesnt get this nice-looking place.

 

[jawilson]

Somewhat along the lines of this thread, the demographics screen has information on your approval rating and population lifespan, which I assume corresponds roughly to happy faces and health. Do either of these values factor at all for your score (final or current), or are they just more or less throw-away stats? If they do count, would it then make sense to work at building, for example, every temple in a city to increase happiness and therefore your score? (There is probably already a thread on this somewhere, but I never seem to be able to use the search function in this forum; it returns 10000 results from civ 2/3).

 

[malekithe]

Do either of these values factor at all for your score (final or current), or are they just more or less throw-away stats?

They play no part in the game's scoring whatsoever. Moreover, they are some of the more meaningless stats provided by the game. High approval ratings or lifespan simply indicate that your cities have a lot of room to grow.

 

[cabert]

That's not gonna transform my economy from deficit to surplus. The income from pillaging and razing is pretty small in the early game.... And I'm certainly not going to take more cities; that would just make the problem worse.

razing a city provides good money + room for later expansion + cripples an AI
3 good reasons to raze a few...

 

[pukii]

until now nobody even tried to pick out what i said, instead we get hints about the early game - everybody plays in a different way so somebody will take archery and somebody wont need it.

i am more into the later games when things get more complex.

 

[cabert]

until now nobody even tried to pick out what i said, instead we get hints about the early game - everybody plays in a different way so somebody will take archery and somebody wont need it.

i am more into the later games when things get more complex.

the OP asked about the early game, so...
What's your point, about later? Later, you'll have mature cottages everywhere, the ability to use mercantilism or numerous trade routes...
There is no problem with late expansion, you'll be able to fund it.
If it wasn't your question, i'm sorry, but you didn't state clearly what you expect.

 

[Bleser]

Thanks for all the input people... this helps a great deal.

In my current game I started small for some time (five cities) and was right up there in the tech lead the whole game... but as I've weakend my neighbors and kept about half of what I captured, I now have eight or nine cities... but I have so many resources/luxuries in return that I am making something like +40 GPT from the AI so I'm not in the red while at 70% science rate.

The downside is that no one wants to trade with me anymore... razing cities seems to double the attitude modifier against me and the rest of the world hates me as well... I never give tribute and never help the AI in war time.... and I founded a religion that I share only with my neighbors (the ones I've been at war with ) so everyone else thinks I'm a heathen.