How do you manage zero production cities?

[Raphs_Sai]

Well not literally zero production, but cities that have a hard time getting past 4 hammers per turn due to the given tiles (likely water tiles)

I typically build the minimum amount of necessary buildings and then I use that city to build spies, workers, or settlers. Basically things I need but not in a rush to get.

Then I guess the other part of the question is what would you call the "minimum amount of necessary builldings?"

I guess my list would be:
-Granary
-Lighthouse (if coastal)
-Library
-Courthouse
-Forge (only if Industrious)
-Harbour (only if Expansive)

I even find the Library or Courthouse can be a tough sell cuz 90/120 hammers is quite a lot for a city with low production and not a huge surplus of food. And if you're running Caste System and can't afford to switch to Slavery, you could be building for quite a long time.

Of course, I'm not looking for the answer "you should find a better place for a city". This is more of those last few cities you build to fill in those available gaps.

 

[AW Arcaeca]

Try building a granary and maybe a lighthouse, then whip a forge.

 

[s.bernbaum]

Usually such cities (at least of mine) are on peninsulas or islands and have mostly coast tiles. As such, they build the items you listed but only build the forge if they have at least 4 hammers. If the AP has been built and I have the AP religion, they also build the religious buildings to get the extra 2 hammers each. Most of the builds come from using slavery due to the pop growth from seafood. If I have a lot of such cities, I may stay in slavery longer than normal or if Spiritual, switch back into slavery now and then.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This may be sacrilege, but if the city only produces four hammers a forge only adds one...so it will take 120 turns to get back the 120 hammers you put in. In a city with production that low a forge may not be worth it.

 

[s.bernbaum]

True on normal speed but I play mostly marathon on huge maps, where 120 turns is not that long relative to the length of the game AND I whip the forge, so its a lot less than 120 turns.

 

[Dalinski]

I pretty much resign these cities to a centre of commerce, whip building via slavery the bare minimum of buildings needed to meet that specialisation. Probably only need the first 4 buildings....

 

[Seraiel]

Forges also enhance the Whip.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

True on normal speed but I play mostly marathon on huge maps, where 120 turns is not that long relative to the length of the game AND I whip the forge, so its a lot less than 120 turns.

On marathon the forge is 360 hammers instead of 120, so you are talking about 360 turns to make it up...same effect. As stated it does help with the whip though, so if you are going to stay in slavery long enough to get value out of the forge you would whip it first.

 

[The Diocletian]

Forges also enhance the Whip.

Wow, this seems really obvious now, but TIL that forges make for better whips.

I'm learning stuff everyday on this forum!

 

[s.bernbaum]

On marathon the forge is 360 hammers instead of 120, so you are talking about 360 turns to make it up...same effect. As stated it does help with the whip though, so if you are going to stay in slavery long enough to get value out of the forge you would whip it first.

Yup. I never noticed how long it would take since I always whip the forge in low production, high growth cities, if I build one there at all, which I usually don't bother doing, since it does not contribute much. For example in my current game I have two one tile islands and a peninsula with all desert land, so effectively a similar island. It is now the mid 1800s. None of them have forges and none will get them. They were all generously donated to my empire by a now RIP AI.

There are two slightly larger islands and peninsulas that, at this late stage of the game, gotten to 12 hammers between civic enhanced improvements and AP buildings. They will probably get forges, either by the whip or temporarily switching several citizens from tiles to priest and engineer specialists.

As to it being late 1800s, I have been avoiding an easily attained domination victory, since I started this game aiming for a space race victory, but got distracted twice by two neighbors who could not mange to keep their spies at home, RIP neighbors.

 

[Kjotleik]

On marathon the forge is 360 hammers instead of 120, so you are talking about 360 turns to make it up...same effect.

This is correct if you never whip in the city... but I doubt anyone never whips a low-production city.

Besides 120/500 = 360/1500; so it doesn't change the catch-up time in percent of number of turns.

If you do whip (normal speed from now on...):

1 - No Forge:
One Population = 30
You would ideally want to 2-Pop-whip an Axeman (35 ) for 60 . This means you'd only want a total of NO MORE than 4 invested before the whip. In a 1- city. This means:

Put one turn into an Axeman (1 ), then 2-Pop Whip for 60 - giving next turn: 1 + 60 + 1 - 35 = 27 in overflow to put into the next build (a building of some sort, probably). Oh, and you have a shiny new Axeman ready to go as well.

2 - Forge:
One Population = 30 + 25 % (30/4 = 7.5, rounded down to 7) = 37
Now you cannot 2-Pop Whip an Axeman (35 ) anymore. In order to get the benefit of a 2-Pop Whip you would need a 40 unit available. I think there are no 40 units (thinking hard...but not checking), but a Horse Archer is 50 if I recall correctly.

So, that would give:
Put one turn (1 ) into a Horse Archer, 2-Pop Whip for 2x37 = 74 resulting in next turn: 1 + 74 + 1 - 50 = 26 in overflow. Plus a brand new Horse Archer. You get a better (?) unit, but with one less overflow to put into a building.

If you have enough to whip every 10 turns, then a Forge will earn you 74 - 60 = 14 per 10 turns. 120 / 14 per Whip = 8.57 Whips. Rounded up to 9 Whips x 10 turns = 90 turns to pay back the initial investment.

Of course, if you grow from size 2 to 4 in less than 10 turns, and have "too much" happiness, you could potentially pay back the Forge in less than 90 turns...

Also, it is not always an advantage to whip Horse Archers instead of Axemen. So it may not be positive to build a Forge for that reason alone... (remember, this is a 1 city we're talking about here...). Besides, you may not have the Technology to build Horse Archers yet.

Yet another point is that you would have to actually spend some time putting overflow into a Forge in the first place. That would take (120 / 27 = 4.4 Whips = 5 Whips x 10 turns = 50 turns). Potentially this equals a total overflow of 5 x 27 = 135 you could've spent on units...

Now, this is just a repetition of what you can find in some fine articles elsewhere here on civ-fanatics. Just thought I should write something instead of just referring to another page...




Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[HBHR]

Yet another point is that you would have to actually spend some time putting overflow into a Forge in the first place. That would take (120 / 27 = 4.4 Whips = 5 Whips x 10 turns = 50 turns). Potentially this equals a total overflow of 5 x 27 = 135 you could've spent on units...

Hi, could you explain better this last equation?

 

[Seraiel]

I think he's trying to say, that Forges are best built first :> .

 

[Kjotleik]

Hi, could you explain better this last equation?

I'd be happy to. Sorry I was a bit unclear...

A Forge is costing you 120 to build. In a 1 city that means you will either have to spend 120 turns (out of 500) to build it - or chop down forests, or use Slavery, or both of the latter two...

From my first example - the No Forge example - Overflow was calculated to be 27 after whipping an Axeman into existence. I conveniently "forgot" that you would get 1 per turn in between whips as well. That I did on purpose just to keep focus on the whip itself, and it's resulting Hammers.

First Whip of Axeman = 27 Hammers overflow (going into Forge)
Second Whip of Axeman = 27 + 27 = 54
Third Whip of Axeman = 54 + 27 = 81
Fourth Whip of Axeman = 81 + 27 = 108
Now, this means you lack 12 Hammers to complete the Forge. "Forgetting" that you would've gotten those inbetween whips (to focus on the Whip itself), means you lack 12/27, which is equal to 0.44. So a Forge will need five (108 + 27 = 135 ) Whips to complete.

If you Whip units for war, those 50 turns (which is 10% of the total!) you spend to produce the Forge may not be turns you can afford to waste NOT overflowing into additional units.

But, clearly, if that particular city is not crucial for war-success it is always best to whip overflow into a Forge before overflowing into anything else. From a pure -point of view, that is. Then, again, it is not always good to delay putting Hammers into other infrastructure just to get the extra from a Forge. Some will in fact claim it is almost never worth it building a Forge in low-hammer cities. Still, be aware that both chops and whips do get the +25% bonus from a Forge.

I hope this is what you asked for... if not, clarify your question and I will be happy to answer...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[Dalinski]

Kjotleik, this advise is particularly enlightening.....I think you just let me know of another interesting tool in the game.....

 

[HBHR]

I hope this is what you asked for... if not, clarify your question and I will be happy to answer...

Oh, very thx i understood perfectly now

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

How about building Workshops and Watermills in the city's vicinity?

 

[Seraiel]

Island cities don't have place for that.

 

[rfcfanatic]

If you are able to do so, spread AP religion to such city, build AP religion temple/monastery, run Organized Religion and whip a Forge. The rest of buildings wouldn't be so costly any more.

 

[Drakarska]

How about building Workshops and Watermills in the city's vicinity?

FP's and/or plains with rivers are ideal for that, especially if you can hook up TGD. FP watermills are just insanely sick (I think I just quoted someone, so props for that phrase whom ever you are ).

I'll usually build a combo of WS's and WM's in the flats, especially if there is no forests or hills. And if I can plant a city that's bi-sected by multiple rivers, so much the better.