How do you normally pair up your national wonders?

[madscientist]

To me it does not matter much, except for a few choice combos

1) NE plus either NP or OX. If you can keep forrests while maintaining enough food for specialists, a NE plus the NP is a killer combo. NE and OX go very well because your either running scientists or representation and OXFord magnified that.

2) Maori + West Point + Drydocks. That produces some serious navies, especially if your charismatic (three free promotions). Also, add a settled GG for the vikings and that's 4 free promotions for teh navy!

3) HE may go with teh Maori as the purpose of the HE is fast earlyier military production. By later in the factories/ironworks further support it.

4) Hermitage + GT on a border city. The extra culture helps in border wars

 

[CivCorpse]

If tech rates are high enough, particularly I can swing early astro (double bulb), and Sci Meth off an early lib (hopefully trade/bulb for philo, paper, and edu) then you have a pretty good chance of growing forests with preserves. The most common ways I get the high preserves NP is by using philo and/or caste for early astro and settling on a forested island; the NP will be had very quickly so chopping is suboptimal. If I've skipped lit, normally because I have land that warrants caste, then I will preserve everything and get a faster turnaround; even masses of 1 are highly effective at building slots.

Alternatively having a resource tundra city where I build nothing but a courthouse and maybe a grain works. If you can hit Sci Meth early you can get some impressive growth in the tundra and really there is nothing better to build up there.

SciMeth enables forest preserves but does nothing to speed up growth in a forested tundra city. Tundra forests have no food. So initially you are working a bunch of 1 citizens to build infrastructure for those specialist slots. Switching to U.S. to cash buy the buildings can be pretty strong though. A pop1 city running 20 specialists? That is pretty good. Especially if you are in Rep. Though without the Kremlin it can be pretty expensive to do. How long will it take that city to repay the gold investment needed. I have done the tundra NP when I have Sid's sushi and Mining Inc.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I'm a bit skeptical about putting West Point in a draft center. It seems odd to throw away the extra XP that it is giving you. Of course, the troops that you train get their full promotions, but if you are drafting your production suffers (citizens need to work food tiles to recover the population).

If you aren't going to use the Heroic Theater, what about GT plus Red Cross? - drafted troops get half an XP, but they get the whole promotion. It seems to me that a steady stream of troops that are one promotion away from March is a good thing

Steady stream of Medic I's? O'rly?

The questions become:

1) Do you want draftees to be the backbone of the army?
2) If so, do you want your army to be ...worthless?

If 1 is "no", then obviously the GT/WP combo is wrong, and GT is moot as to where it goes. You won't be drafting anyway.

If 1 is "yes", and 2 is "yes", then a few multiplayer games will school the know-it-alls otherwise some day.

If 1 is "yes" and 2 is "no", then the goal of higher quality draftees emerges as more obviously worthy.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, it all depends. I can have a production city pump out troops just as fast as I can draft - in that case, putting WP in that city is better overall.

It really depends on the old fewer, better units or more worse units. Would you rather have 30 units with 5XP each, or 20 units with 2XP and 10 units with 10XP. You might get more total XP point with the first, but if you have every attack at 30% odds, you'll do worse than if you can have a few attacks at 60%.

If you're aggressive or protective, then I wouldn't pair WP with Globe, since you're already going to have access to the second tier promotion (namely pinch). But in other cases, it is nice to have units come out with more than the 2 XP they would get normally (assuming theocracy or 1 settled GG).

Plus, you also have to see how long you're going to be drafting for. Do you plan on drafting until the end of time, or do you have lots of cottages, and need to head out to free speech at some point to recover in tech?

 

[Skallagrimson]

Heroic epic naturally goes to the city with highest hammer output.

No. Unit production requirements are lower than late-game wonder and space ship parts requirements. Any more than required to build a prod-costly unit in 1 turn goes to waste, so base hammers in the HE city need not be "extreme", but merely "generous". This is why I pair mine with Moai (and never trust any of the know-it-alls who can't spell MOAI), because it will have generous and decent yield, but not to an excessive degree that it will be wasted. You'll typically see 1-turn builds of all but the most expensive units, which are 2-turn builds, and that's good enough. It also ensures you can also gear up a navy, which most players forget to mention in their strategies. You like seafood? You better have battleships.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Well, it all depends. I can have a production city pump out troops just as fast as I can draft - in that case, putting WP in that city is better overall.

It does indeed all depend. If I don't have a good Moai city I'll probably pair HE with WP as per tradition. And then I'll either plan for settling GGs in the draft pump, or sometimes opt not to go to nationhood at all and rely on multiple unit pumps.

Plus, you also have to see how long you're going to be drafting for. Do you plan on drafting until the end of time, or do you have lots of cottages, and need to head out to free speech at some point to recover in tech?

That's another major point. Am I warmongering for the duration of the game, or to I plan on switching gears to space race it when I've got a generous land mass? HE/WP is a good SINGLE unit pump allowing all other prod cities to focus on a space race. The GT city was then a temporary throw-away "wartime only" city, in which case you won't want to combine it with anything.

But if your plan is to be aggressive for the duration, you can keep your draftees coming in at 5 XP (with a minor GG-settle supplement) and pump out more elite units (with a heavier GG-settling investment) and warmonger out of two cities while the rest simply keep the economy buzzing happily during the war. And then as you tech-ahead your high volume, high XP forces become even more deadly.

 

[Antilogic]

All this thread has done is show me I should build more national wonders.

Generally, I place Oxford and National Epic together, and I build the Heroic Epic in my military city along with Great Generals. If I can use an excess great engineer to place the West Point wonder, I do so, but otherwise that sucker doesn't get built--it's just too expensive.

Wall Street obviously goes to a shrine city and the Moai in the city with the most coastal tiles or lakes (I had a game where my city had 4 lakes and coastal tiles with fish and corn--awesome city)...and that's about all my criteria. I put Mt. Rushmore wherever because it is relatively cheap, and the others are built haphazardly or not at all.

 

[popejubal]

If I can use an excess great engineer to place the West Point wonder, I do so, but otherwise that sucker doesn't get built--it's just too expensive.

I agree with this one. I'll build West Point in a good production city if I ever end up with an "extra" production city to spare. That doesn't come up too often, though. I never build the West Point in the HE city unless I happen to have an extremely conveniently timed Great Engineer, though. I just am not willing to give up the big stream of troops that the HE city is pumping out - especially since I've probably been settling my Great Generals in that city for a while when WP becomes available.

Wall Street obviously goes to a shrine city and the Moai in the city with the most coastal tiles or lakes (I had a game where my city had 4 lakes and coastal tiles with fish and corn--awesome city)...and that's about all my criteria. I put Mt. Rushmore wherever because it is relatively cheap, and the others are built haphazardly or not at all.

I put Mt. Rushmore in a city that has mediocre production because I don't want to accidentally block Iron Works or something else because I stupidly forgot that Mt. Rushmore was a national wonder.

Maeiou goes in the city with the greatest number of water tiles that will actually be worked over the course of the game. If you have a city with a couple of plains hills and a bunch of non-seafood coast and ocean, Moai is going to give you relatively low benefit since you're not going to use all 15 water tiles. I'd much rather give Moai to a city with 2 fish, a corn and a few hills with 6-7 water tiles instead of putting it in a city that takes 20 turns to get its next population point. (If I'm going to make it a specialist city, though, I leave Moai out since I'm only going to be working seafood instead of working every water tile.)

 

[mirthadir]

SciMeth enables forest preserves but does nothing to speed up growth in a forested tundra city. Tundra forests have no food. So initially you are working a bunch of 1 citizens to build infrastructure for those specialist slots. Switching to U.S. to cash buy the buildings can be pretty strong though. A pop1 city running 20 specialists? That is pretty good. Especially if you are in Rep. Though without the Kremlin it can be pretty expensive to do. How long will it take that city to repay the gold investment needed. I have done the tundra NP when I have Sid's sushi and Mining Inc.

I'm talking about forest growth. Early Sci meth dramatically increases the odds of growing new tundra forests next to old tundra forests. Getting the slots, there are a half dozen quick ways to get them:
1. Rushbuy, requires that I be in the civic to do it and have the cash on hand.
2. Corps, extremely good, but those come a bit later most often.
3. AP to flip out mass priests via multiple temples (extremely good with Spi leaders and AW).
4. Forge + factory + 3GD. The forge will take a few turns, but it opens an engineer slot the factory will take longer, but if you have 3GD power (not out of the question if you slow building the NP) then you quickly ramp up production and can backfill in libs, CH, etc. with ease.
5. Running priests off UBs, my favorite being the obelisk (which can be built way back in the BCs or be free via SH).
6. GE build AW there in the early game.

 

[z0wb13]

I'm a bit skeptical about putting West Point in a draft center. It seems odd to throw away the extra XP that it is giving you. Of course, the troops that you train get their full promotions, but if you are drafting your production suffers (citizens need to work food tiles to recover the population).

If you aren't going to use the Heroic Theater, what about GT plus Red Cross? - drafted troops get half an XP, but they get the whole promotion. It seems to me that a steady stream of troops that are one promotion away from March is a good thing

bump. i never thought of this.

i vote that iron works and heroic epic go into different cities, *generally, because the HE takes away some of the versatility of the IW that is, hopefully, built in your empire's most productive city.

in other words, whichever city has HE should basically have a barracks and enough / to make your most advanced unit in at most 3-4 turns. i play on epic speed, but even 1-2 turns for garrison-type units. i digress, so, all you need are a few farms and hills and maybe some bonus resource, and you get a unit pump for the entire game. pairs well with west point, or moai statues if you anticipate needing a big navy.

but, late-game, your most productive city could be, like, flood-plains cottage city running universal suffrage- paired with, maybe, the national park- or riverside water-mill/workshop city running state property- i have paired this with mt. rushmore, just because it's expensive but useful during a modern-war. then, if you have your iron works here you can decide if you want to build late wonders, especially the internet or UN, or spaceship parts, or more troops if you need them, and .

oxford and wall street can go together, but i need a compelling reason like a corporate HQ or shrined religion. it sort of also depends if you're using mostly specialists or cottages in that city to generate or . but i have used things like oxford and national epic before.

 

[popejubal]

but, late-game, your most productive city could be, like, flood-plains cottage city running universal suffrage- paired with, maybe, the national park- or riverside water-mill/workshop city running state property

Your big cottage city generates commerce. All that commerce can be converted to gold with the slider. ANY CITY IN YOUR EMPIRE CAN USE THAT GOLD.

Your most productive city is not the city with the most commerce. Your most productive city is the city that can generate the most hammers (or food->hammers + "real" hammers under Slavery). You can certainly rush buy on top of the regular hammer generation, but your most productive city is still your most productive city, regardless of how much commerce you can generate.

 

[z0wb13]

Your big cottage city generates commerce. All that commerce can be converted to gold with the slider. ANY CITY IN YOUR EMPIRE CAN USE THAT GOLD.

Your most productive city is not the city with the most commerce. Your most productive city is the city that can generate the most hammers (or food->hammers + "real" hammers under Slavery). You can certainly rush buy on top of the regular hammer generation, but your most productive city is still your most productive city, regardless of how much commerce you can generate.

huh?

i'm saying that, because of all the different ways to produce later in the game, you're going to have more options to boost total city production.

so, and, mines and farms might not be the best way to produce hammers. e.g., if you are running caste system w/ state property, and you have a pop 21 city working 20 grassland workshops, that might be the best place to build the iron works.

and i'm not talking about rush-buying, either, although there are some threads that say it's pretty good w/ the kremlin. but also, under universal suffrage, every town produces a hammer so a riverside cottage/water-mill and workshop city w/- i think it is- electricity and state property. that's, like, blowing my mind right now.

anyways, my point is only that IW should go in your highest city, w/o regards to the whip. in fact, i think it should be a big, healthy city that's running a lot of citizens working high tiles, something like a riverside-grassland, like chopped jungle. i do understand the distinction between and .

edit: my other point is that HE and IW should be built in two different cities, and not stacked. that way, you have at least two powerful production cities by the mid-late game, one for troops and one for anything else. west point should go with HE, plus any GGens or military academies you get from wars, because pretty much every build from that city will be a barracks and military units, and maybe a forge, factory, or dry-dock when you can afford it.

 

[DaveMcW]

HE + IW makes sense if...

1. It's the best production site on the map
2. You are playing Epic or Marathon

 

[Unconquered Sun]

GT + RC is a valid combo.

 

[Antilogic]

I put Mt. Rushmore in a city that has mediocre production because I don't want to accidentally block Iron Works or something else because I stupidly forgot that Mt. Rushmore was a national wonder.

Maeiou goes in the city with the greatest number of water tiles that will actually be worked over the course of the game. If you have a city with a couple of plains hills and a bunch of non-seafood coast and ocean, Moai is going to give you relatively low benefit since you're not going to use all 15 water tiles. I'd much rather give Moai to a city with 2 fish, a corn and a few hills with 6-7 water tiles instead of putting it in a city that takes 20 turns to get its next population point. (If I'm going to make it a specialist city, though, I leave Moai out since I'm only going to be working seafood instead of working every water tile.)

I should have mentioned I also look for a seafood resource, but in general, more coast/ocean = greater chance of seafood resource. The food does play a factor though. I've found a few locations with maybe 5 land tiles, and a couple seafood resources (generally small peninsulas).

It also tends to be one of the cities that is spared the wrath of the whip during the early game, if I establish it then.

 

[z0wb13]

HE + IW makes sense if...

1. It's the best production site on the map
2. You are playing Epic or Marathon

but why? because warfare plays a bigger part of longer games?

i like forbidden palace with the hermitage, especially if the target city is pushed up against a cultural border.

 

[Bandobras Took]

Because units cost more hammers on longer speeds, there is a larger relative turn advantage to combining the two.

On Normal, combining Iron Works with Heroic Epic is usually overkill.

 

[nbcman]

If I get lucky and at least build two of the three early GE wonders (Pyramids, Hagia Sofia, Hanging Gardens) I will build the NE and the IW in that city. The NE will increase the rate of GP at that city (hopefully faster GE) but it runs the risk of popping an GA due to the GP pollution. Opinions?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

National Epic & Oxford in super-scientist city (usually running 8 - 12 scientist specialists and 10+ settled Great Scientists depending usually has a couple towns as well) ONLY if playing a specialist heavy economy (SE or hybrid)

Wall Street & Oxford in main commerce city if running a cottage/commerce heavy economy

If lucky enough to get a GOOD shrine, then Wall Street & National Epic (will probably run a ton of merchant specialists here) plop any corporations here as well (usually don't build those, though)

Heroic Epic & Westpoint in main military pump if not playing for aggressive wins

Heroic Epic & Ironworks in main coastal military pump if playing for aggressive wins
Globe Theater & Westpoint in high food city if playing for aggressive win

 

[pfo]

National Park / Iron Works is great for a production city. If you get it riverside, that will be the one that builds the Three Gorges. Another good combo is Moia / Iron Works if you can afford the health and have a lot of ocean tiles.

Heroic Epic goes in the big military producer, National Epic goes in the big GP producer... Wall Street goes in the big commerce producer, Oxford goes in the big science producer...

For large empires, Forbidden Palace goes in the best city to reduce maintenance costs.