The AI will go for a strict space tech path if allowed. This is why you will see artillery and SAM infantry while still without railroads and destroyers. The AI will go for the apollo program (rocketry) and then backfill the industrial techs.
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How does Mansa Musa always stay ahead in tech?
- Thread starter Archbob
- Start date
I was blown away by a recent game that Mansu beat me in the Space Race by about 20 turns. I thought I had a "run away" win. Details:
- Prince difficulty, Pangea Standard
- I was Catherine/Russia.
- I had 3 religions and 3 shrines.
- 100% science and ~100 gold/turn since about the Modern Era.
- Largest land area in 6-way game.
- Terrible military, but everybody loved me. I never had a war.
- Science Wonders, 5 Acadamies, Science specialists only.
- First to Liberalism, tech leader all the way until about Artillery, then suddenly Mansu has Rocketry as well?
- Mansu builds Apollo program 40 turns before me and the rest of the world.
I also noted that it was ONLY Mansu that had such a lead, not only on tech, but on the industry to build it faster than me.
Mansu also beat me on a previous game. At one point he declared war and mercifully allowed peace just as he entered my territory with something like 40 Cavalry. He's like Sumeria was in CIVIII, some kind of a bug or something.
- Prince difficulty, Pangea Standard
- I was Catherine/Russia.
- I had 3 religions and 3 shrines.
- 100% science and ~100 gold/turn since about the Modern Era.
- Largest land area in 6-way game.
- Terrible military, but everybody loved me. I never had a war.
- Science Wonders, 5 Acadamies, Science specialists only.
- First to Liberalism, tech leader all the way until about Artillery, then suddenly Mansu has Rocketry as well?
- Mansu builds Apollo program 40 turns before me and the rest of the world.
I also noted that it was ONLY Mansu that had such a lead, not only on tech, but on the industry to build it faster than me.
Mansu also beat me on a previous game. At one point he declared war and mercifully allowed peace just as he entered my territory with something like 40 Cavalry. He's like Sumeria was in CIVIII, some kind of a bug or something.
quick answer: lots of cottages
Don't quote me but I think the AI getting 5% extra science or whatever is not the only thing that actually affects his research rate. Other discounts/bonuses given to the AI can have an effect too, if only indirectly by decreasing costs and therefore allowing a higher science rate.
As someone else noted too, a large cash reserve could allow him to research very quickly.
Don't quote me but I think the AI getting 5% extra science or whatever is not the only thing that actually affects his research rate. Other discounts/bonuses given to the AI can have an effect too, if only indirectly by decreasing costs and therefore allowing a higher science rate.
As someone else noted too, a large cash reserve could allow him to research very quickly.
crocodiledundee
Chieftain
Lol...Oh man....*holds stomach*
Archbob
Ancient CFC Guardian
The cottage thing doesn't make since because I cottaged every square possible. Well, time to try a new game.
Roland Johansen
Deity
Did part of your population become unhappy during the wars? Unhappy population doesn't produce anything. Your cities will drop in population or not grow as fast as they could. It's often better to increase the culture slider when war weariness becomes a problem.
You said that you cottaged everything. The new conquered cities were probably small in the beginning and had small cottages instead of advanced towns. The first thing to do with these cities is to allow them to grow up to their happiness limit by building farms. Then you change the farms into cottages and build the research improvements in these cities. It will take a while before the cottages become towns and these new cities start contributing to your empire in the same way as your old cities.
Did you use the civics free speech and emancipation? They are good for your cottages.
You can use spies to look in the Indian empires cities. This may give you an idea of the science production of his cities compared to yours. Also the use of specialists can have propelled him ahead of you. If he's first to reach a few technologies, then he even gets extra great persons which can help him even further ahead.
You said that you cottaged everything. The new conquered cities were probably small in the beginning and had small cottages instead of advanced towns. The first thing to do with these cities is to allow them to grow up to their happiness limit by building farms. Then you change the farms into cottages and build the research improvements in these cities. It will take a while before the cottages become towns and these new cities start contributing to your empire in the same way as your old cities.
Did you use the civics free speech and emancipation? They are good for your cottages.
You can use spies to look in the Indian empires cities. This may give you an idea of the science production of his cities compared to yours. Also the use of specialists can have propelled him ahead of you. If he's first to reach a few technologies, then he even gets extra great persons which can help him even further ahead.
If he is allowed to go unattacked he will be a tech machine. If he is next to an aggressive civ, you don't really want to cripple that civ IMO. While Mansa is likely to be a friend, he is also a late game threat. So if he is getting attacked, it is really to your benefit. 
Especially if it is by a civ that you share borders with.
That civ may attack you as well but they are likely to be a hard target to beat unless you have a tech advantage. I would prefer to attack a softer target early and simply defend against the aggressive enemy.
Especially if it is by a civ that you share borders with. That civ may attack you as well but they are likely to be a hard target to beat unless you have a tech advantage. I would prefer to attack a softer target early and simply defend against the aggressive enemy.
AI Civs seem to employ a lot of specialists. Once you have espionage you can snoop in their cities and you will see that. So Mansa is probably keeping ahead in tech by employing dozens of scientists, and getting many great scientists. He is possibly using Representation civic for an extra three beakers per specialist. He will also have academies in most cities from the great scientists.
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
- Joined
- May 25, 2005
- Messages
- 8,898
Mansa's unstopable tech machine... I have found the way to deal with him is to b-line to production line, rush a factory in your capital and build the pentagon there while the rest of your production cities factory-up. Then spam infantry at the geek. Seems he is always off on another branch of the tree. Oh, and if you were ever below 90% science after the initial city-spam stage you will never catch up.
culdeus
Emperor
GinandTonic said:
This is the proper way to deal with a space racer. Cut their legs out. Even if you don't take them down all the way a massive pillaging party will set them back enough to win. Another thing wrong with the FP is that you say that everyone is happy with you.
If I detect a space racer I try to get them upset with me in the hopes that they will demand tribute, demand techs, among other things. This in the hopes that he either
a) Declares war on me
b) Builds up a military for awhile using more hammer tiles
The AI will keep a weaker military if they are in good shape diplo wise with you and anyone (as far as I can tell).
What is going on here is that Mansa is trading more effectively than the human. The "we fear you're too advanced" limit does not kick in for civs with "friendly" relations, so if the human stays pleased with all and friendly with none (its often difficult to reach friendly without a common enemy, so staying pleased with all necessitates being friendly with none), that human will hit the tech limit faster than Mansa, who is often able to maintain friendly with most other civs.
GinandTonic
Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime
- Joined
- May 25, 2005
- Messages
- 8,898
The last two posts seem to imply that Mansa manages to have a love in with just about everyone, which seems to be true. Any ideas how he manages to keep everyone so happy?
Mansa in these situation deserve a quick brutal death.
How ? try to convertto the same religion with a known warmongery civ in sight (moncty alex and toku are good canditates). Then either converted or not, begin to bribe that one up to the +4 trading relation modifier by offering techs, plus it increase their score wich is interesting because AI usually don't attack bigger score civ than thier (even moncty don't do that mostly or at least won't do that on demand). Then launch your well fed dog to mansa by dropping a final tasty bone.
Oh and don't forget to rampage mansa yourself as well.
While at war let your chihuahua does the most, do not expend too much troop, if you can get city raze them so the chihuahua won't grow to a big nasty bulldog.
How ? try to convertto the same religion with a known warmongery civ in sight (moncty alex and toku are good canditates). Then either converted or not, begin to bribe that one up to the +4 trading relation modifier by offering techs, plus it increase their score wich is interesting because AI usually don't attack bigger score civ than thier (even moncty don't do that mostly or at least won't do that on demand). Then launch your well fed dog to mansa by dropping a final tasty bone.
Oh and don't forget to rampage mansa yourself as well.
While at war let your chihuahua does the most, do not expend too much troop, if you can get city raze them so the chihuahua won't grow to a big nasty bulldog.
maltz
King
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2006
- Messages
- 967
Here are my observations (mostly on Emperor and above):
The AIs become friendly with each other more easily than human with AIs. The modifier required for being friendly is lower. Also, AI vs. AI does not get negative modifiers such as:
"You traded with our worst enemy!" (up to -4)
"You declared war on our friend!" (each time -1)
Therefore, it is very easy to see multiple AI civs friendly towards each other "as long as" they share the same religion.
***
The best way to deal with Mansa Musa is to bribe his neighbor to attack him, or bribe him into attacking his neighbor -- and in either case, backstab him as soon as possible. He will still love you afterwards.
The AIs become friendly with each other more easily than human with AIs. The modifier required for being friendly is lower. Also, AI vs. AI does not get negative modifiers such as:
"You traded with our worst enemy!" (up to -4)
"You declared war on our friend!" (each time -1)
Therefore, it is very easy to see multiple AI civs friendly towards each other "as long as" they share the same religion.
***
The best way to deal with Mansa Musa is to bribe his neighbor to attack him, or bribe him into attacking his neighbor -- and in either case, backstab him as soon as possible. He will still love you afterwards.
The easiest way to see what (approximately) is going on, is to pay a visit on WorldBuilder. In fact, this is a good thing to do if you want to LEARN based on AI actions (that are, without any exception, rational - i.e. they follow constantly and steadily a plan). For civs like Mansa you will notice some very interesting things.
1. Strict specialization. You will not find redundant buildings in his cities. One thing that is easily overlooked is that generally we humans aren't that strict (and so, we aren't that economical). He also makes better use of GP farms than humans: we tend to think in more long terms, and we overlook that in the Medieval a GP farm with 2 scientists and 2 merchants may easily be better in science production than a commerce city (due to the fact that cottages haven't been developed yet), and also this city can be very easily "transformed" into a production center with the creation of some workshops/mines (where the commerce city will always be a commerce city). This flexibility is very helpful for space race wins.
2. Of course, he trades a lot, but that's not the point since in the end noone can help him. At best he can get some extra cash by selling obsolete techs to backward civs. So, you must do this also yourself.
3. (and this is IMO the key) Since he has much fewer wars, and since he specializes cities very strictly, in the bigger part of his time he is building Research in almost all his cities. That's the reason why he manages to keep up in tech with a civ that has twice the land.
Hence, my 2 cents is:
Attack Mansa. Or, if you can't, try to persuade someone to do it. You don't care what happens - you just need to get him out of his plan. The same applies to all other "Tech guys", like Asoka, etc. Once they stop building research, you are alone in the tech race.
1. Strict specialization. You will not find redundant buildings in his cities. One thing that is easily overlooked is that generally we humans aren't that strict (and so, we aren't that economical). He also makes better use of GP farms than humans: we tend to think in more long terms, and we overlook that in the Medieval a GP farm with 2 scientists and 2 merchants may easily be better in science production than a commerce city (due to the fact that cottages haven't been developed yet), and also this city can be very easily "transformed" into a production center with the creation of some workshops/mines (where the commerce city will always be a commerce city). This flexibility is very helpful for space race wins.
2. Of course, he trades a lot, but that's not the point since in the end noone can help him. At best he can get some extra cash by selling obsolete techs to backward civs. So, you must do this also yourself.
3. (and this is IMO the key) Since he has much fewer wars, and since he specializes cities very strictly, in the bigger part of his time he is building Research in almost all his cities. That's the reason why he manages to keep up in tech with a civ that has twice the land.
Hence, my 2 cents is:
Attack Mansa. Or, if you can't, try to persuade someone to do it. You don't care what happens - you just need to get him out of his plan. The same applies to all other "Tech guys", like Asoka, etc. Once they stop building research, you are alone in the tech race.
Chris Woods
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2006
- Messages
- 25
I must admit exceptionally odd associations with Mansa as well. In a recent game (I believe I do have the save file, titled "how?" or something; I'll try to dig it up.) I went into the World Builder and counted everything when Mansa suddenly did the Mali-Jump maneuver, where he suddenly doesn't need any of my techs and is building Apollo despite being very behind very recently. Some notes about this game:
* Mansa needed none of my Techs.
* I had 41 Cottages, fully developed, to his 27
* We both had 9 cities
* Of my nine cities, 6 had Academies, all had Library, University, Observatory.
* Of his nine cities, one had Academy, some had library, fewer uni, fewer still Observatory.
* I was first to Liberalism.
* I was running Free Speech and Representation.
I recall, very distinctly, being at a complete and total loss to how it was possible for him to suddenly achieve parity despite all other AIs being absurdly backwards (They have Macemen, for example) -- I only spent a few moments trying to figure it out, I admit, and my memory may be a bit fogey in regards to the above, but I am confident the numbers I've posted are close. Like I said, I do recall holding onto the savefile (Though I, unfortunately, lack previous saves on the same game so that some sort of graph of his techs could be done -- that would be a fascinating experiment. Save every ten turns then open them in the Builder and chart when he gets what technology. Tedious, though.)
Anyhow, I'll try to post the save later on (presuming I have it....) for others to look at. I was in the same state of mind as the OP when it went down.
Chris Woods
* Mansa needed none of my Techs.
* I had 41 Cottages, fully developed, to his 27
* We both had 9 cities
* Of my nine cities, 6 had Academies, all had Library, University, Observatory.
* Of his nine cities, one had Academy, some had library, fewer uni, fewer still Observatory.
* I was first to Liberalism.
* I was running Free Speech and Representation.
I recall, very distinctly, being at a complete and total loss to how it was possible for him to suddenly achieve parity despite all other AIs being absurdly backwards (They have Macemen, for example) -- I only spent a few moments trying to figure it out, I admit, and my memory may be a bit fogey in regards to the above, but I am confident the numbers I've posted are close. Like I said, I do recall holding onto the savefile (Though I, unfortunately, lack previous saves on the same game so that some sort of graph of his techs could be done -- that would be a fascinating experiment. Save every ten turns then open them in the Builder and chart when he gets what technology. Tedious, though.)
Anyhow, I'll try to post the save later on (presuming I have it....) for others to look at. I was in the same state of mind as the OP when it went down.
Chris Woods
TCGTRF
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2006
- Messages
- 298
Chris Woods said:
Chris:
A. You do NOT need 6 academies. That is 5 techs that you did not get a boost on (or five science specialists for your science city.) You need one academy in your science city--early. I usually use the first one that pops after the Great Library.
That probably lost the game right there.
B. You need an early Library in your first city to get the Great Library early by researching Literature. You just need enough Libraries and Universities to have enough to build Oxford in your science city. You just need Observatories in your science city and the cities that you will be building Spaceship parts in (your production cities.) A library or university in a city that is producing no beakers is a waste of hammers. Once you get Computers, you'll also need Laboratories in your production cities.
C. Are you beelining techs? At Industrial, beeline to Assembly Line, then Industrialization (to find Aluminum resources.) Once you're getting factories and coal plants building in your production cities, head straight for Rocketry (the AI builds it *really* early.) After that, it's Fiber Optics to get the 'Net and allow you to "back fill " the techs you've skipped. If you're on the Equator, Robotics is next to get the Space Elevator.
Mansa is specializing his cities. That's how he's beating someone who generalizes theirs.
Tom
