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How does war weariness work?

Discussion in 'Civ3 Strategy Articles' started by Oystein, Aug 16, 2003.

  1. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    Raze some cities.
    A phoney war doesn't add ww points. In fact, a phoney war is a good method to benefit from war happiness. That is, if the other civ is an arch enemy of your civ (e.g. in your 'opposite side' scenario, imagine a denied tribute demanding which led to the war).
    Or the other way round: if you're regarded as arch enemy, the other civs' citizen get happy. In this case, the other civ will benefit from a phoney war and you can wait forever for their anarchy.
     
  2. a4phantom

    a4phantom Perma-newbie

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    Umm well yes good to know. Thanks.
     
  3. strollen

    strollen Chieftain

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    Questions about War Weariness in MP games. In human human war

    1. Do ships in opponents terroritory count for adding War Weariness?

    2. If I have a unit in my opponents terroritory, does my War Weariness increase by 1 and his stay the same?

    3.. Does each attack I launch against my opponent increase his war weariness by 2 and each unit I lose increase my WW by 2?

    thanks
     
  4. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Chieftain

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    As far as I've seen, war wearines does not seem to exist in multi-player games. The reason for this is that in PvP wars both players would have the maximum level of war weariness because they would typically never make peace. (I disagree with this change in rules compared to the standard rules. If people want to make war, then they must face the consequences. Sadly, I can't change it with the editor.)
     
  5. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    I have a few questions about WW...

    - If I declare war on a civ and make peace with them a few turns later, their WH will disappear. But if we go to war again in the future, do they get back their WH ? ie. do they keep their WH points (without any effect) during the peace period ? It seems that WH is kept if it's a phoney war, so WH doesn't decrease through time, but is it really lost when you make peace?

    - If during the 1st war I get a lot of destruction but stay in Despotism, I don't get any WW. But are WW points virtually added ? If I then make peace and revolt to Republic, will I suddenly face WW when war breaks out again ?

    - In the 2nd war, if the other civ declares this time, do I also get WH ? Is this independent from the WH/WW of the other civ, related to mine ?

    - It seems that WW isn't working in PBEM in C3C, do you agree ? I once faced massive destruction by a human until he captured my last city. I was in Republic and never suffered from WW. How come ? In the 3 first points, the other civ is in fact a human player, does it change anything ?
     
  6. TimBentley

    TimBentley Chieftain

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    This one I know for sure. Yes, you will (assuming you still have enough WW left after the peace).
     
  7. Oystein

    Oystein Chieftain

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    You will get back the WH. WH is the effect of having negativ wwp in wartime. Signing peace will not effect wwp. If you have positiv wwp it will decrease during peace. But there are no change if you have negativ wwp. So, if you have WH and the enemy are approching, you might want to sign peace to save the WH for later.

    The calculation of wwp is independant of government. Its only the effect (WW/WH) that depends on government.

    The effect of the 2nd war is independent of the 1st. With one exception, you cant have more than 100% (un)happy people from WW/WH.

    I have never tried PBEM. The WW seems to work correct for humans in hotseat game. But there are a terrible bug for the AI, maybe the bug is also affecting humans in PBEM.
     
  8. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    Okay, thank you, man ! :)

    From what I understand, there is a kind of trick, or should I say "exploit" ? there. Send a few units to your PBEM foe very early in the game, threaten him with them, and so have him declare war on you : you get war happiness for a small cost. Up to you to keep war between both humans, since you can't be responsible for a possible phoney war.

    A very powerful trick, all the more when you play a game with a few units already in place. Very small cost -> great effect = exploit in my eyes, because it harms both gameplay and historical accuracy. The war weariness / happiness system isn't very good. Here's hoping another change in Civ4. ;)
     
  9. anarres

    anarres anarchist revolutionary

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    Exploit in your eyes, but not in the eyes of many. WW / WH is a good part of gameplay imo. :)
     
  10. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    Yeah, but this doesn't contradict my opinion. ;) The consequences aren't in the proportion of the causes at all. This calls for cheap actions.

    One way to fix this would be to put war happiness points back to zero when you sign peace (instead of virtually keeping them for later). Or maybe have war happiness points slowly decreasing through time, just like war weariness, so that it's forgotten after a while. The way it is now is just too powerful, and don't be mistaken : I already noticed it, but this time in my favour, in another PBEM of mine. Just for the sake of my integrity.

    I'll soon make a proposition to get rid of this nonsense feature. ;)
     
  11. anarres

    anarres anarchist revolutionary

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    Actually I think WW/WH is a good feature - this is what I was trying to say. :)
     
  12. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    I'm not saying the opposite. Just that it needs reworking IMHO. :) That is what I was trying to say.

    We could also start spamming this place, it needs spamming. :king:

    Hmmm, do you think war happiness is a good thing to have ? :lol:
     
  13. Grille

    Grille panel insect

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    :hmm:
    "let them attack" is the prob in this plan...;)

    I think there's pros and cons here. If you bring only a few units, your rival might not feel threatened, so avoiding sort of a pre-emptive strike vs your invaders. The rival could possibly just block them or move defenders around, thus protecting potentially threatened targets. Although, if that approach happened very early in the game, you could likely disturb a farmer's gambit by your presence alone, of course (rival switches to unit construction etc - mess up rival's plans in general). I think that's why you would visit your rival in the first place, but getting wh cheaply would be an optional secondary effect at the most.

    And if you bring a really threatening stack (in relative terms, that is), you could just attack and your rival's wh bonus isn't worth it compared to the havoc you cause (the wh bonus might be eaten up in no time anyways).

    Definately! :D
     
  14. kryszcztov

    kryszcztov Chieftain

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    The point is there : if you come up with a few units and your rival doesn't have much to counter (just enough to not lose cities, for example), then he can't be scared to death, but could find your stack annoying. Your units would be able to do some pillage and stuff, breaking the sensible micro-management that he had put in place. For a negligeable cost, and, in the case of a mod where you start with a few military units, zero cost. :eek: Because of course your rival wouldn't be able to counter-attack in time, since borders aren't expanded enough, and so you could enter territory and attack/pillage on the same turn. The counter-point is that the rival could make a pre-emptive attack on you and you'd get some war happiness for compensation. Fine. Fair enough. Except this : this war happiness is awfully, awfully (in my view) huge compared to what it should be for a compensation. Some players rely on this trick like if they had found the Graal for the rest of the game. Not to mention that it tempts players to repeat it again and again, just like the uber-powerful Republic slingshot.

    For your information, I was the one under pressure this time. ;) My rival (you know who you are ;) ) came with a horseman we had from the start. There was no way to prevent pillaging on the 1st turn. The result being that, to prevent pillaging (quite annoying but bearable), I had to give him war happiness for a very long time. When you know that I was in full investment mode (economics), pillaging wasn't a fine option. I would have got war happiness of course, but maybe the pillaging would have been extended due to hard luck... or maybe I would have lost a city.
     
  15. grs

    grs nameless one

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    A question about:
    Retreat = Defeat?
     
  16. TruePurple

    TruePurple Civ wanna B

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    You mean 1 citizen who would otherwise be suffering from WW? Can anyones confirm or deny that universal suffrage is such a pathetic wonder as that?
     
  17. TimBentley

    TimBentley Chieftain

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  18. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    Do you get war weariness when you lose a captured city on a flip? I'll guess no, since you can lost cities on cultural flips while at peace.
     
  19. Calis

    Calis on time

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    I am sure that it couses no war weariness, as it is not due to war, but culture, as you already mentioned.
     
  20. Lord Emsworth

    Lord Emsworth Chieftain

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    No WW from flipped cities. I checked for it just a few days ago with an old game.
     

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