How does war weariness work?

[binyo66]

Oystein

I was in war and took 3 GR Cities which force them to sent an envoy to me (which I accepted and made peace), and true after that I didn't make war with GR until I destroy US civ (and had to renewed peace treaty with GR, I couldn't afford two front war). The only thing was, when I rejected GR envoy under demo (which made my capital citizen in ww mode), I checked that many citizens cried out for giving peace a change (they didn't like the war with GR?!?). But while I was in war with US, my citizen ww mode was still low eventhough the war was more than 20 turns. Is that because of US didn't sent an envoy? or other reasons ? (I tried to send an envoy to US after took some of its cities, they desperately wanted peace with me). Another reason, that might affect during the war with US was, my tanks was at most only 1 turn in US teritory, the next turn it would be my teritory. After war with US, I made war with GR again (by not renewing the peace treaty), and this time I used MA. Most of the time my MAs never in GR teritory, I sent them, and then took the city in the same turn. And you might be right, I made war at this game only with 1 country at the time (exception the first war in main island which I had to be in war with Iraq and GR). But I always in war since I sent my 40cavs until I was declared Dominate Victory (Thanks for UK and Aztec).
My conclusion after this game are:
1. Demo is not good for long war, except you can take city in 1 turn (Cavs, tanks, MAs and MIs), and make sure your troops in friendly area.
2. Try not to make war with more than 1 civ for a long war.
3. I think when they sent an envoy, you have to accept it (at least that what my citizens in my capital...). And I think you are right it would effect my rep (which I prefer to lost rep, rather than my country in chaos, and could not produce units).
4. Others such as Police Stat, luxs, Uni Suffer are also important.

 

[Qitai]

Oystein> an observation about WH from my game with multiple WH. It seems that the WH effect is limited to 1 per citizen. I had 5 WH now and I am gaining 5 WH for size 5,6,7 towns, 8 WH for a size 8 city, 9 WH for a size 9 city and 12 WH for a size 12 city (I should get 5WH for size 4-7 cities, 2*5=10 WH for size 8-11 and 3*5=15 for size 12 city). I need more data to confirm but that is my preminary conclusion about calculating all the happiness and unhappiness sources.

The same might apply to WW. You may want to investigate and confirm.

 

[Oystein]

Originally posted by binyo66
But while I was in war with US, my citizen ww mode was still low eventhough the war was more than 20 turns. Is that because of US didn't sent an envoy?
-No

or other reasons ?
-Yes, you probably lost fewer units, or you signed peace with Iraq or finnished them off.

Another reason, that might affect during the war with US was, my tanks was at most only 1 turn in US teritory, the next turn it would be my teritory.
-That helps.

My conclusion after this game are:
1. Demo is not good for long war, except you can take city in 1 turn (Cavs, tanks, MAs and MIs), and make sure your troops in friendly area.
2. Try not to make war with more than 1 civ for a long war.
3. I think when they sent an envoy, you have to accept it (at least that what my citizens in my capital...). And I think you are right it would effect my rep (which I prefer to lost rep, rather than my country in chaos, and could not produce units).
4. Others such as Police Stat, luxs, Uni Suffer are also important.
1: It is more importent to avoid losing units.
2: Yes, but even 1 long bloody war gives much ww.
3: No, I dont think refusing envoy has any effect.
4: Yes.. well, the US has not an huge effect.

 

[Oystein]

Hi Qitai, I think I already has mentioned that

Originally posted by myself
The total number of unhappy citizen from ww can not exceed number of citizen.

If I understand you correctly, this is the same as you are discribing.

If you have 1 war giving 100% ww, you would not notice any additional ww.

If you have 125% or more ww, the police station would not have any effect since you are above the limit anyway.

The ww and wh are calculated independent.

 

[alexman]

Good news:

In Conquests, the AI no longer seems to get WW when it shouldn't (ie when the human suffers). I tested it with one AI vs one human.

Also, in MP C3C, WW seems to happen at the same levels as SP. I tested it in hotseat.

 

[Oystein]

Originally posted by alexman
In Conquests, the AI no longer seems to get WW when it shouldn't (ie when the human suffers). I tested it with one AI vs one human.

I cant see that anything has changed. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70172
How did you test this? Maybe your test just missed the bug?

Well, at least it looks like it works ok for humans in mp games. Testing in hotseat turned out equal for human players.

 

[alexman]

My bad. Sorry.

 

[smiggins]

I can understand that WW might be affected when you lose a city in war, but what happens when you (or your dastardedly PBE opponent), unsportingly chooses to demolish a city before the forces of righteousness (ie: me) can storm it?

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Thanks this is really helpful as some of the factors I didn't know had such a big chunk of war werriness with them.

 

[NobleLeader]

Didn't WW changed any with the Favorite/Shunned Government concepts ?

How do these influence the game ?

 

[wilbill]

Favorite/Shunned govs have nothing to do with WW - only with AI attitude toward you.

 

[seagull]

Is there any way to see what my wwp is?

Also, what causes War Happyness to expire?
It is somwhere around 20 turns from the declaration of war?
Or do you get some wwp "credit" and War Happiness goes away once you've spent it?

Maybe some combination of the two?

Any experience on this?

 

[Qitai]

WH works the same way as WW. So, it basically something like getting wwp credits and goes away when you've spend it. This essentially means if you know how to manage the wwp well, WH can last forever if you do not make peace.

 

[seagull]

Thanks Qitai,
Any idea if you get wwp credit for capturing enemy cities?
I think my war happiness went up just after I captured a city.

 

[Qitai]

No, you get -30 wwp when you are declare upon as Oystein mentioned. And this credit goes only in one direction. There is no way to accumulate more wwp credits for each civ (Although you can get multiple WH by having more than one civ declaring on you). When it reaches zero, you lose the WH. And once it reaches 30, you start to get WW for representative governments.

For WH and WW, you need to know there are trigger population size. WH gives one happiness for every 4 pop. This essentially means if you have 3 pop, you get nothing. But if the town reach size 4, you get 1 happiness from WH. When you reach size 8, you get 2 happiness from WH and so on and so for.

 

[Grille]

seagull,
if you really got more happy people in your empire right after capturing the city, you either got a lux hooked up in the process or triggered a MPP.

PS:
Maybe you captured a content-making Wonder?

 

[anarres]

Has anyone tested these results for Conquests?

I am suffering level 1 WW in a C3C game and I need to know how the AI's WWP are calculated.

It seems the AI gets 1 WWP per turn if it has units in your territory, which also means your WWP will not decrease during those turns.

I am unsure what this means:

The following describes the effect when the human is attacked, the penalty is given to both the human and the AI. If the AI is the suffering part, none gets wwp. (This has to be a bug.)
I have not seen any of these penalties for an AI-AI war.
Add 1 wwp for each
- lost unit without defence value
- improvment pillage/bombed
- unit that are bombard down to 1 hp
Add 2 wwp when a human attacker is defeated
Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)
Add 16 wwp when a size 1 city is captured 17 wwp for bigger cities.

I'm being stupid, but are you saying that if I attack an AI unit and kill it that the AI gets the wwp (2 in it's territory or 1 in mine), or we both do?

Just for clarity, can someone please state the conditions for the AI to get WWP in a war against me.

 

[yoshi74]

You get WWP when you get attacked or when you lose a unit. You don't get points when attacking succesfully. This would make war under democracy nearly impossible.
The point for being in his territory is recived once every round you are, the same if he has units in your territory.
I think the ai gets the same penalties as you do.

 

[anarres]

Oystien's post explicitly states the AI doesn't get the same penalties as the Human, or (quite possibly) I misunderstood this:

The following describes the effect when the human is attacked, the penalty is given to both the human and the AI. If the AI is the suffering part, none gets wwp. (This has to be a bug.)

 

[Oystein]

anarres:
Has anyone tested these results for Conquests?

I have made a few tests to see if the bug was fixed. Everything seems to be the same. I am thinking of make a more complete test, but somehow it is harder to find time now. It was much easier when I was unemployed.

It seems the AI gets 1 WWP per turn if it has units in your territory, which also means your WWP will not decrease during those turns.

Correct

I'm being stupid,

Dont worry, your not the only one

but are you saying that if I attack an AI unit and kill it that the AI gets the wwp (2 in it's territory or 1 in mine), or we both do?

If you attack and kill an AI, none gets wwp. If the AI wins, both get wwp. The AI's wwp will follow yours, except for penalties for staying in enemies territory, and when your wwp decrease.

It does not mather where the battle are. I claimed so earlier, but that turned out to be wrong.

I have changed the original text. Hopefully it is easier to understand now.