How Far Ahead Are Events "Locked In"?

[steveg700]

I commented in another thread here regarding having groomed an heir only to keep finding at the start of a turn that he has lost more and more Wisom. He's down to -4. That's a pretty big hit to science to take over some RNG.

I reload back five years and try again. Same chain of loss happens. Did this Wisdom loss baked into the price's fate and I'm simply can't be avoided now matter how much scum I save? Is that how characters work?

 

[PiR]

I've never experienced such a lost of 4 random events decreasing wisdom 1 point at a time like that, even less in a row.
Are you sure your character didn't just become a zealot? Depending on their specialty (I don't remember the correct word), their stats evolved.
AFAIK, events are not locked, maybe if you redo the same things, but otherwise I get totally different ones when I change my actions.

 

[steveg700]

I've never experienced such a lost of 4 random events decreasing wisdom 1 point at a time like that, even less in a row.
Are you sure your character didn't just become a zealot? Depending on their specialty (I don't remember the correct word), their stats evolved.
AFAIK, events are not locked, maybe if you redo the same things, but otherwise I get totally different ones when I change my actions.

The order went -1, then two years later -1, and then next year or after that Superstitious (-2).

Now this is the son of Prince Marsli, the heir that comes with the Hittities. So maybe for starter characters, there are fixed traits?

 

[PiR]

So maybe for starter characters, there are fixed traits?

Oh maybe. The heir of Babylonians almost always dies.

 

[user330977]

Oh maybe. The heir of Babylonians almost always dies.

Hi PiR

Do you mean the female heir? That's funny - I've played Babylonians quite often and she always lives to a ripe old age, surpassing her father.

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[uhu]

Good question (and only to answer by looking into the code).

I reload back five years and try again.

Doing things differently? I mean, if you replay your part perfectly in all the same details, I'm sure, the game is deterministic and repeats everything exactly, too.
To surely make a difference, a simple way is an extra fetch of a number from the generator. (In order to test in civ4 systematically the different RNG outcomes of a specific situation, I added usually far away on the map a couple own tanks adjacent to a dozen barbarian warriors and saved. On reloading repeatedly I killed an increasing number of those warriors and got then every time a fresh number from the RNG for the actual test case)

I guess, in general the execution of events can be a (scripted) fix or variable number of years after they have been triggered -- or the next event in a chain of events ((which chain depends on your decision now)) is triggered by conditions fulfilled anytime in the future. [Say, on the invention of Metaphysics ... or Monopole Magnets in NextWorld ]

Events where there's some element of cause and effect, choice then consequence, that I can dig. RNG-generated kicks to my sand castle don't enhance the experience. My mileage varies greatly from others tho. Then again, maybe it's not totally random, maybe there's something going on that isn't explained. Maybe if a character has gotten some high states the game tries to compensate with random penalties.

I'd actually like that, if it be fair and symmetric, ie. if a character with some low stats would also receive mirror image positive compensation.

 

[PiR]

Do you mean the female heir? That's funny - I've played Babylonians quite often and she always lives to a ripe old age, surpassing her father.

No, sorry, the little boy. Not the heir then. The second in line.

 

[Xyth]

Oh maybe. The heir of Babylonians almost always dies.

No, sorry, the little boy. Not the heir then. The second in line.

Not always, I've had 2 games where he survived to adulthood. Dies far more often than not though.

 

[steveg700]

Good question (and only to answer by looking into the code).
Doing things differently? I mean, if you replay your part perfectly in all the same details, I'm sure, the game is deterministic and repeats everything exactly, too.
To surely make a difference, a simple way is an extra fetch of a number from the generator. (In order to test in civ4 systematically the different RNG outcomes of a specific situation, I added usually far away on the map a couple own tanks adjacent to a dozen barbarian warriors and saved. On reloading repeatedly I killed an increasing number of those warriors and got then every time a fresh number from the RNG for the actual test case)

I guess, in general the execution of events can be a (scripted) fix or variable number of years after they have been triggered -- or the next event in a chain of events ((which chain depends on your decision now)) is triggered by conditions fulfilled anytime in the future. [Say, on the invention of Metaphysics ... or Monopole Magnets in NextWorld ]

I'd actually like that, if it be fair and symmetric, ie. if a character with some low stats would also receive mirror image positive compensation.

Well, the problem with the system doing that it seems to mean characters will be a wash. This prince went to -5 Wisdom, however he did get his Corage to 9. Since his father lived to 85, he spent little time as king. Decent general tho. I miss all that training.

As for characters with great strengths or lots of weaknesses, I'd say why not have events that prevent choices. HOWEVER, we need to get Soren to patch away all this starting the trn with gaining pluses and minuses, flaws an strengths, that don't seem to be a derivative of anything.

 

[uhu]

Well, the problem with the system doing that it seems to mean characters will be a wash.

Not necessarily, would depend on what scope you 'harmonize' the raw results of the "evil RNG". Within each character, over all characters a player has, over all randomness a player experiences in 1 game or over all randomness in several games (by having statistics regarding many games). I'd prefer the latter.

As for characters with great strengths or lots of weaknesses, I'd say why not have events that prevent choices.

seems to contradict

Events where there's some element of cause and effect, choice then consequence, that I can dig.

HOWEVER, we need to get Soren to patch away all this starting the turn with gaining pluses and minuses, flaws an strengths, that don't seem to be a derivative of anything.

No! 30 years of Civilization development have shown, that it is better to refrain from paying heed to seductive accommodativeness.
Of course I like to have it my way each single time, but finally I find exactly that boring. Ymmv.

 

[Dale]

Characters have a deterministic seed.

 

[steveg700]

seems to contradict

Whoops. "present", not "prevent"

No! 30 years of Civilization development have shown, that it is better to refrain from paying heed to seductive accommodativeness.
Of course I like to have it my way each single time, but finally I find exactly that boring. Ymmv.

It's always better to listen to criticism and look for ways to improve. That's the way to go, not "daddy knows best". There's a lot of fawning right now and giving the room for improvement a pass. That may take a year or two to wear. I'd rather we go ahead and get there.

It's not a matter of "having my way each time". That's a canard that's common on this topic that allows for dismissal of criticism. It's a matter of having impactful changes be the byproduct of gameplay, of choices. They're consequences, not caprice.

 

[uhu]

It's always better to listen to criticism and look for ways to improve.

Sure, agree.
Seems I fail to see the essence of your point. Please, could you try to make it clearer, what you mean with:

patch away all this starting the trn with gaining pluses and minuses, flaws an strengths, that don't seem to be a derivative of anything // It's a matter of having impactful changes be the byproduct of gameplay, of choices. They're consequences, not caprice.

 

[steveg700]

Sure, agree.
Seems I fail to see the essence of your point. Please, could you try to make it clearer, what you mean with:

So changes happen to characters through events, For instance, the king tries to influence his sister. They get in a fight. The sister may be imprisoned or became a fugitive or both get wounded. The wounds might turn into the scarred condition, or they might die. There's some randomness, however it does feel consequential, not capricious.

In battle, a general can also become harmed or die. Or maybe he gets some extra Courage. Consequential, not capricious.

At the start of a turn there will be a slew of notifications. Simply being told that a character has become Bitter or Drunk or Bold or Compassionate is capricious, not consequential, or at least seems that way if the player can't connect that notification to any factor that preceded it. Same goes for rating changes that seem to happen for no reason. I'm not saying it needs to always be an event that triggers the change. Maybe living in a bad relationship with a wife or governing a city with lots of discontent might create the hazard of a character becoming a bitter drunkard. Maybe embracing religion or having positive relationships with siblings can make someone bold or compassionate.

In terms of a deterministic seed, maybe characters can have traits that in and of themselves don't impact that character, rather they give the character a proclivity for impactful traits, triggered by certain conditions. Now a player has information to work with and doesn't feel blindsided when the heir winds up with -4 wisdom and Superstitious, as the character has always been Dogmatic or Irrational (neither of which might make a character fated to losing Wisdom, simply be prone to it within certain conditions.

 

[KayAU]

This prince went to -5 Wisdom, however he did get his Corage to 9. Since his father lived to 85, he spent little time as king. Decent general tho.

Seems like the combination of extremely high courage and very low wisdom could be an issue if it comes to actual battle.
" - We attack tomorrow under cover of daylight.
- Daylight, sir?
- It's the last thing they'll be expecting -- a daylight charge over the minefield."

I don't mind a bit of RNG, and variety in characters only help spice up the game. Managing risk and dealing with luck both good and bad are all good strategic challenges, and adds variety to the game. Of course, there is a balancing act here, and I suspect we don't all have the same preference when it comes to how big an impact RNG should have.