How I finally beat Prince

[cabert]

Hmm... based on my own games I would say

1) Look at the production and power graphs on the info advisor screens. If power is running disproportionately low compared with your production, odds are good that you are building too much.

guilty

2) Look at the statistics screen, and check the number of each kind of building you have created - if the numbers are all the same, and in close proximity to your total number of cities, odds are good that you are building indiscriminately.

not guilty

3) When do you switch out of Organized Religion? If your immediate thought is "why would I ever do that?", you're busted.

not guilty

4) If your most common reaction to the war horns is "oh no!", rather than "what a nuissance", you're probably a buildaholic.

guilty? not always, but happens sometimes

5) If you ever have find yourself thinking "hmm, my defenses are a little light - I'll build some military after this building is finished", see your doctor.

guilty

6) That monastery you just built - how many beakers per turn are you getting from it? Similarly, why are you building a lighthouse in a city that isn't working any water tiles yet?

guilty, but for my defense i build monasteries for culture +missionnaries

7) Bring up the domestic advisor. Here's a city with lots of commerce but few hammers; there's a city with lots of hammers and few commerce. Do they have the same buildings?

not guilty

8) True or False - switching to monarchy is a really big deal because doing so generates so much happiness?

false, too much of a cost (theaters+temples+ressources are good)
ok, guilty

Arrrg, i'm a builder!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Hey man, don't knock monasteries! They're a cheap source of culture, and you can't build them after Scientific Method. You'll be happy to have them in 1900AD when you finally get around to capturing the holy city of that religion.

True enough, but how many do you need? After all, missionaries are national units - you're only allowed to have so many running around at once.

Too many monasteries is a flaw I've been trying to eliminate in my own games - having four or five monasteries in a city pulling in 60 research/turn seems a fine thing; those same monasteries in Hammertown ( commerce per turn = 2 ), not so much....

 

[jerVL/kg]

True enough, but how many do you need? After all, missionaries are national units - you're only allowed to have so many running around at once.

Too many monasteries is a flaw I've been trying to eliminate in my own games - having four or five monasteries in a city pulling in 60 research/turn seems a fine thing; those same monasteries in Hammertown ( commerce per turn = 2 ), not so much....

It's not the research that's important, it's the culture. They're cheaper than theatres (and available much sooner) and give you more bang for your buck than obelisks.

It's good to have a monastery pre-built in every town before the Industrial Age, which comes in handy when you need to quickly pop a missionary from somewhere, only to find out that your only town with a monastery is busy finishing the Kremlin or something.

 

[Rubruk]

Currently I am learning how to fight, to be warmonger. Why? To become a better builder. In that case I can afford having a smaller army and building much more buildings !!!

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It's not the research that's important, it's the culture.

Can you elaborate? I'm not clear on what you are using the culture for....

 

[cabert]

quite simple, voiceofunreason,
culture is for :
* cultural victory
* land grab / protecting against land grab

and 2 cpt is enough to get the fat cross in 5 turns, which is enough for a warmonger

SO
if you're not creative, if you didn't build Stonehenge or if you already got calendar, you need to build a culture building in your new built/conquered cities.
Monasteries are often the cheapest (since you're not creative).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Side note: monasteries cheaper? my game lists monasteries at 60, theaters at 50. Did I screw something up locally? or are people confusing theaters with libraries?

if you're not creative, if you didn't build Stonehenge or if you already got calendar, you need to build a culture building in your new built/conquered cities. Monasteries are often the cheapest (since you're not creative).

Alright, I feared it might be that, for now I'm more confused (or in disagreement, take your pick )

As far as a cultural victory is concerned, the cultural contribution from monasteries matters only three cities, so you shouldn't be building that many (clarification: I use the convention of the statistics screen, which treats the buildings of each religion seperately - so not that many here means three of each type you can get your mitts on; of course you hope to have all seven types, so twenty-one in all).

To build a monastery, you need a religion present in the city? So in your new cities, you are stuck (because the city didn't get founded with a religion) until a missionary arrives.

Captured cities may already have a religion present; in that event you could build a monastery.

Of course, if the religion is present, you are already getting 1c/t, or you have some other state religion, and presumably then a source of missionaries available, so you can convert the city to your religion and pick up the 1c/t that way.

In other words - unless I misunderstand, the monastery only serves to take a few turns off the initial pop time (contrast with a city founded with no religions, which will just sit there, culturally Poor, indefinitely unless you find a remedy).

Which leaves the battle of cultural pressure, and I've no useful experience to draw upon there - of late I've been using pointed sticks, rather than buildings, to control those contested tiles, which bypasses the issue altogether. Something else to learn about, I suppose.

The other special circumstance I'm familiar with would be a choke, where you want fast cultural expansion to prevent the AI from settling the lands that you would otherwise have a monopoly on. So cutting the time of the second or third pop by adding a monastery might make sense.

 

[kniteowl]

lol Buildaholic??? Depends on da stragety I guess... i generally specilise my cities by the time i got 2 prince (finally realizing da importance!!!) lol

generally build my units in my production cities da only buildings in those cites in da ancient era r ganeries, forges & barracks... my cottage cities i go st8 4 libraries & markets... GP cites ganaries...

Wonders are basically wat is priority??? if im on an islands map or find an early religion i go st8 to the oracle 4 metal casting or Codes of law. Metal casting becuz of the Collossus!!! Extremely useful especially combined with da financial trait!!! The other wonder depends on situation & resources...

Stongehedge is SO Cheap I sometimes build it 2 Deny it 2 otha Civs Especially if i'm creative & Only when i cut off the others civs to my own Perninsula of land

I'm generally a Buildaholic Around the Re *wateva da word is* age lol wen i get democracy and im AHEAD in tech... wen i get in2 war stop reseaching & upgrade or rush building my units or get a frend or 2 into the war by bribing dem wit techs *IM AHEAD IN TECH REMEMBER!* lmao!

 

[Conquestador]

SO
if you're not creative, if you didn't build Stonehenge or if you already got calendar, you need to build a culture building in your new built/conquered cities.
Monasteries are often the cheapest (since you're not creative).

When i was Buildaholic i usually build first a culture building in newly conquered cities but now that i'm tryng to recover i've discovered that there are other ways.
One is sending a missionary of your state religion ... this will give 1 cpt and let's you expand to fat cross in 10 turn.
Another possibility after discovering music is just beginning producing culture in your city.
Third varation, you can build Sistine Chapel in another city and use a specialist in the new city will give you +2 cpt (looks like revolting citizens count as specialist for this matter ... but i haven't tested it myself)
Anyway there are many situation where building a monastery can be a better option but they never are the only option for culture.

 

[Crighton]

I've finally started to get some decent starts on Prince level. When I get a start I can work with it just seems that I tend to fight on long continous war from swordsman on up. And I believe the AI is bribing other AI to do it.

Most interestingly I've noticed that the AI likes to do me like that, anyone know a way to figure out which AI is bribing the others to goto war with me? THAT'd be nice to know.

 

[cabert]

Side note: monasteries cheaper? my game lists monasteries at 60, theaters at 50. Did I screw something up locally? or are people confusing theaters with libraries?

after a look at the info center, you're right
I got confused because of the creative trait i often have. I thought theaters where really cheap because of that.

 

[cabert]

As far as a cultural victory is concerned, the cultural contribution from monasteries matters only three cities, so you shouldn't be building that many (clarification: I use the convention of the statistics screen, which treats the buildings of each religion seperately - so not that many here means three of each type you can get your mitts on; of course you hope to have all seven types, so twenty-one in all).

21 is a lot, isn't it? Plus you need to get as much religion as you can. So If you capture a city with a missing religion, or if a new religion gets into one of your cities, you MUST build the monastery as soon as possible, to get the religion toward you 3 big ones.

To build a monastery, you need a religion present in the city? So in your new cities, you are stuck (because the city didn't get founded with a religion) until a missionary arrives.

when you've got monasteries everywhere, that's not a big deal, is it?
but at this point, i usually build a theater if i've got the tech

Captured cities may already have a religion present; in that event you could build a monastery.

Of course, if the religion is present, you are already getting 1c/t, or you have some other state religion, and presumably then a source of missionaries available, so you can convert the city to your religion and pick up the 1c/t that way.

Typical case (also answering conquestador): you capture a city, it gets just the one tile on which it is built, the rest is surrounded by enemy culture.
First you build a theater. What i do is pop rush, since they are starving anyway. So after one turn, you get a theater, 3cpt and (3 depending on your traits) less people in the city. What do you build then, knowing they are still starving? something cheap, towards culture... let me guess...
In fact I build a monastery first because it costs more people, making less of them die of starvation and more die towards production.

In other words - unless I misunderstand, the monastery only serves to take a few turns off the initial pop time (contrast with a city founded with no religions, which will just sit there, culturally Poor, indefinitely unless you find a remedy).

Which leaves the battle of cultural pressure, and I've no useful experience to draw upon there - of late I've been using pointed sticks, rather than buildings, to control those contested tiles, which bypasses the issue altogether. Something else to learn about, I suppose.

The other special circumstance I'm familiar with would be a choke, where you want fast cultural expansion to prevent the AI from settling the lands that you would otherwise have a monopoly on. So cutting the time of the second or third pop by adding a monastery might make sense.

I am a buildaholic, what do i know?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

21 is a lot, isn't it? Plus you need to get as much religion as you can. So If you capture a city with a missing religion, or if a new religion gets into one of your cities, you MUST build the monastery as soon as possible, to get the religion toward you 3 big ones.

It depends on how you count, really. 21 monasteries in three cities is very different from 21 monasteries in 20 cities. The former suggests a strategic choice, the latter is likely (though not certainly) a bit more indiscriminate. Building monasteries where they have a high payoff is a good thing - but the conditions where they have high payoff are not often located everywhere.

Besides, we're recovering builders - training missionaries is a non issue, since we're probably still in OrgRel

 

[cabert]

It depends on how you count, really. 21 monasteries in three cities is very different from 21 monasteries in 20 cities. The former suggests a strategic choice, the latter is likely (though not certainly) a bit more indiscriminate. Building monasteries where they have a high payoff is a good thing - but the conditions where they have high payoff are not often located everywhere.

Besides, we're recovering builders - training missionaries is a non issue, since we're probably still in OrgRel

I'm never (well rarely) in OrgRel. Don't know why, since I build so much lol.
In fact I know why, it's because I often get philosophy early, and choose pacifism for the low upkeep and GPP bonus. I (very very rarely) switch to OrgRel when I go for cultural, and get some new religion(s) that I could spread to get some more cpt, but already have discovered scientific method.
So, in fact I lose the pacifism bonus at some point because i didn't build enough monasteries!!!