How jungles can make for terrible starts

[zeofig]

I agree that jungle starts can be slow, but I don't think they are as bad as people think

• Jungle starts are much easier with progress. It's all about getting calendar and getting to work, and hopefully getting springtime.
• Conversely, if you wanna play tradition then consider rerolling a jungle start. I know some people don't reroll, but you can still go progress in that case. Expecting to choose your pre-planned policy trees on no-reroll or other ironmanish modes is unrealistic.
• Having the chop at calendar restricts early teching, but I find this pretty reasonable. Getting calendar is not exactly expensive, and you're gonna be getting it soon anyway. Didn't chopping jungles used to require iron working? Now that was restrictive!
• In terms of terrain bonuses... I find the bonuses near your own capital are usually irrelevant, especially since you can quickly road it up if you end up fighting there

I do however agree about the pantheons. Springtime is a good pantheon, but you can really get screwed if you start on jungle, go for springtime, and miss it. That's just sad, and I think it would be cool if another pantheon could be a better substitute. Renewal feels really weird with jungles, because you have to plan not to chop them for a while. That can be interesting, but it can't serve as a substitute for springtime, since if you miss springtime you're still gonna be on the "chop and plant" beeline. The other pantheon which synergises with that kind of start is festivals, but I find it's just not a good pantheon on most starts.

 

[dostillevi]

A few other out of the box (perhaps) thoughts:

1. Jungles are rich in food - What if we had a mechanic to turn food or pops into production. Perhaps a repeatable that converts 1 population into a lump sum of hammers. Build the repeatable, then the next thing you build gets the production bonus. This is functionally like slavery so I'm hesitant on that regard, but it would thematically solve the issue in a unique way, if balanced properly.
2. Add a science bonus inherent to, say, trapping, that gives 1 science per two jungle tiles worked. It's a very minor boost but would help jungle starts tech up a bit faster. Build order would be a beeline to Calendar, then mining while benefiting from the extra science output until plantations come online. Trapping doesn't usually offer much to a jungle start, so this required tech for Calendar is another blow to early game efficiency. This would help.
3. Remove the Barbarian ability to move quickly through jungle.
4. Give civs with preferred jungle starts an easier way to build roads or to move through jungle. Have Naresuan's Elephant be able to build roads similar to the way roman legions can. I'd limit this to just within jungle, but that's a bit finicky and it's not that huge a bonus. This can help offset the jungle move penalty a bit. Alternately give it a bonus to jungle movement, but we already have the Aztecs doing this. For the Maya, I'd just give them a jungle movement bonus but only in owned territory since they aren't quite as aggressively oriented as the Aztecs. Brazil I think is most closely balanced to a jungle start since they benefit so greatly from Brazilwood which also (if I recall) leaves the jungle in place.
5. Absolutely need 2 pantheons oriented around jungle starts.
6. Incorporate some of the even more resource mod's resources, such as pineapple or perhaps obsidian, that spawn within Jungle. Jungles often feel light on early game bonus resources, and these could help provide a few hammers. Maybe bump up the rate of banana placement too. There are also other resources to consider like Rubber Trees, Hardwood, or some kind of animal camp equivalent to sheep but for jungle that provides 1 production. Stone or something new like clay could also be a productive jungle resource but these would clear the jungle tile. Also, elephants could spawn in jungle. I don't think I ever see this currently on communitu.

 

[ridjack]

I have never really understood why there are two separate prequisits for chopping forests and jungles, why can't they both be the same tech?

Someone mentioned this higher in the thread, but this is exactly how it used to be, although I feel like at the time they were both on Bronze Working? So if you had jungle plantation luxureis, you needed to get Bronze Working AND Calendar before those luxuries were useful. Jungle was moved to Calendar to put all THAT on one tech and solve that problem.