How many troops does a unit represent?

[Rodent]

I like to determine the size (numerically) of a Unit as a Proportion to the population of the Empire At the time of Creation . So if i produce a warrior and my lone city is size 1 (10,000 People) the Size of the Warrior could be 100 to 1000.

Of course if you have a large empire (population wise) the Size of Unit also increases

 

[timerover51]

The way that I view the units in size is relative. In the WWII in the Pacific scenario, I try to go with historical values for the units. A US Marine battalion, in a good defensive position, could normally mangle an attacking Japanese regiment without taking severe losses. Therefore, I view the Japanese units as regiments, Netherlands units as regiments (as they were primarily made up of Indonesians with limited training), the British and American units as battalions, and the Chinese as divisions. This basically gives me rough equivalents in combat power. Artillery I figure as a battalion/regiment with 18 to 24 guns, but with the Japanese having lighter artillery with less ammunition. That also puts the Artillery in the same relative combat power ratio as the Infantry. For Armor, only the British, Americans, and Dutch get medium tanks, which allows me to standize the combat values of the tank units fairly well.

The ships are individual units. I compute the battleship land bombardment value based on the following reported combat results. The British computed the suppresion value of a 15 inch High Explosive shell to be equal in value to six 6 inch shells, or a volley from one battery of medium guns or one minute of fire from field guns. This gives the battleship carrying 8 or 9 guns the equivalent value of 3 artillery units. However, as the battleship must carry a limited amount of ammunition for land bombardment, I reduce it to a value of 2 artillery units. Aircraft I figure at squadron to group size, with 5 units per Allied carrier, until I further subdivide the carriers into US, British, Japanese, and Dutch, the Chinese do not get carriers or battleships.

For the basic game, I use the battleship as two artillery units to compute my various combat values, which means that I pretty much standardize on units being roughly battalion to regimental size. As long as the relative size is equal, the results are about correct as well.

Now, if I could just get the RNG to cooperate with Ancient verses Modern units and I will be very happy. In the Civilization Board game, each Ancient Unit rolls one die, each Medieval units rolls two die, each Industrial Unit rolls three die, and each Modern unit rolls four die. This does give the Ancient Units a small chance against Modern Units, but does avoid the bias that is in the computer game.

 

[Kumquat]

It really depends what kind of unit. I think of a ship being just 1 ship but all my infantry as a battalion of around 1000 troops. I cannot think of my infantry being 1 unit It makes me laugh at the thought that my city of a million is guarded my 1 dude with a rifle or that a single tank can take and hold a city

 

[AznWarlord]

I'd say it depends. One Batallion of Spear men in the Classical Era may have been 50 units. In WWII, a Transport could carry about 20 men, and 6 units in Civ3, so it's not even close to 4 men a group, not very accurate with the US military.

 

[timerover51]

I'd say it depends. One Batallion of Spear men in the Classical Era may have been 50 units. In WWII, a Transport could carry about 20 men, and 6 units in Civ3, so it's not even close to 4 men a group, not very accurate with the US military.

It is unfortunate that the transport looks like a landing craft, close to the look of an LCM-3 that could carry 60 or so men. Normally, a military attack transport could carry a battalion to the large part of a regiment depending on size. The transport in the game is the one naval unit that I view as representing a small to medium size convoy. Since I assume my units are about battalion in size, that would mean roughly 4 to 6 ships. I have increased the combat value to reflect this. That is being a bit optimistic with tanks however, as to transport a tank unit requires twice as much tonnage as an infantry unit.

 

[Aabraxan]

I just treat them as 1=1. If there's more than one troop in a unit, I can't tell. They move as one, attack as one, live & die as one.

 

[mr_lewington]

hmm maybe i shouldve added:
1 unit = ____x____ pixels

 

[Spoonwood]

[Ok folks it is a game. That warrior is one single unit of game play mechanism whose pixels resemble a human form. When it 'dies', I lose one unit.]

This unbeliever says Amen to that sister.

 

[BlueStar]

i picked battalions but it varies from game to game-I tend to consider armies as corps at most-and sometimes divisions-and their are terms from mid-evil times-an army was very often divided into 3 "battles" and a small unit of knights and retainers was a "lance"

 

[El Justo]

i think that the composition of each unit depends on the scope and size of the map. by this i mean that the larger the map (ie a world map) the larger the actual size of a unit is in relation. of course, everybody will have a different opinion on the issue as we see here in this thread however, my experience, especially w/ scenario creation, has always gone donwn this path in terms of actually determining the "size" of a single unit.

i chose division size for the infantry units...on a larger world map. air units are equal to a squadron, ships equal to one ship, and arty pieces equal to a battery. some units could theoretically represent a batallion (machine gunners for example).

now, for a smaller sized map or one where the actual size in km/miles per square is larger than on a bigger world map, i think the composition of units should be smaller.

anyhow, this is how i've approached it for quite a while and it seems to have worked well for me in terms of creating scenarios

 

[axehaxe]

I picked platoon but I think it all depends on the unit you are using. A warrior is around 500 and horsemen about 50. Archers are about 1000. Spearmen are about quantity rather than quality so probably 2,000. Standard swordsmen come in larger numbers (+1) with better equipment (+1) to be total(+2) stronger than warriors so that's why they are 3/2/1. Catapults are probably around 5 to 10 and shoot rocks the size of half of a standard sports car. Any special kind of swordsmen (gallic, immortals, and legionary) would come in much smaller numbers like 300 or even 50! War elephants are single elephants. Curraghs and Galleys are single curraghs and galleys. Ancient Cavs are 300 horses. Pikemen, now you are talking hordes of these guys like maybe 5,000. Medieval infantry are probably 1,000 but cost so much because of the amount of armor they wear. Similarly knights come in even smaller numbers depending on the regular, veteran, or elite status. Regular is like 500 knights. Veteran is like 250 experienced knights with 300 regular knights. Elite is like 50 paladins + 100 cavaliers + 450 regular knights. Musketmen and musketeers just have to be around 300 (Like the Zulu warriors attacking the British). They cost so much because the manufacturing cost of muskets without industrial equipment. Longbowmen are lower in number because in real life it takes forever to train them so probably like 200. Caravels are like 3 or 4 ships per unit. Single trebuchets shoot boulders the size of a piano. Cannons are single cannons and shoot bowling ball sized lead balls at higher velocities and much faster rates than catapults or trebuchets. Cavalry use shotguns and grenades and come in packs of 2,000 to 5,000. Galleons are entire companies of ships of 25 and are smaller and more maneuvarable than caravels. Frigates come in packs of 25 to 75 depending on the regular, veteran, or elite status. Riflemen are definetly in the 8,000 upwards range and use the British Enfield Rifles. Those guys are the American Civil War type of soldiers. Infantry are WWI type soldiers, come in the 10,000+ range carrying bayonets on their standard issue M-16 carbines. Guerrilas are very very extensively trained to use limited supplies and numbers (2,000) to do the most damage. They hide in jungles, caves, and buildings using anything from sniper rifles, to booby traps, to poison darts. Artillery come in 50's and fire C4, RDX primed shells at long range. Iron clads, Destroyers, Cruisers, and Battleships and any other such ships are single warships. Destroyers use something known as a K-gun which fires depth charges that can blow up just about anything. Submarines are obviously single submarines and fire torpedoes. Bombers come in fleets of 25 to 50. Tanks come in 100's. Marines are trained to be able to use ANY weapon and often times use flamethrowers, rocket launchers, and their standard sub-machine gun (MP5?). TOW infantry (5,000 per unit) are all armed with bazookas and Drones and reconnaisance helicopters assist them from above (Vietnam War soldiers). Mech infantry are the equivalent of tanks (100 per unit) except they are larger and designed to better withstand explosions. They lack the training that tank units recieve but are trained very extensively in defense and occupation duty. Modern Armor are NOT tanks but rather a robotic killing machine based off of the tank. They too come in 100's and have a multiple arsenal of weapons on board. Their main weapon is the 90mm High Velocity round like found in Halo against the Brutes and their weapons. Sometimes, the modern armor carries more high tech weapons such as a blinding laser scan gun or a microwave anti-electronic device. Nukes are obviously single nukes.

 

[dexters]

I've seen AI with 53 frigates. how would that translate to real world ship building?

 

[timerover51]

Dexters, I am not sure if Axehaxe has fully thought some of his comments through. I would view 53 frigates as 53 individual frigates, produced by an somewhat odd AI. Never have seen that many ships from an AI before. At least, not in Civ. Other games, yes. Hate to think about having to tackle all of them, unless I had a fair number of bombers and some cruise missiles for coast defense.

 

[dexters]

Dexters, I am not sure if Axehaxe has fully thought some of his comments through. I would view 53 frigates as 53 individual frigates, produced by an somewhat odd AI. Never have seen that many ships from an AI before. At least, not in Civ. Other games, yes. Hate to think about having to tackle all of them, unless I had a fair number of bombers and some cruise missiles for coast defense.

There's a trigger for the AI to build that many ships. It's not the first time I've seen the AI with a large navy.

I'm guessing the AI build ships based on the number of coastal cities they have and offshore cities they have and this particular AI meet both criteria.

The other AI which had lots of shore as well, didn't build quite as many, though 10+ warships + transport ships were the norm.

edit: this was on a standard map 100x100.

 

[timerover51]

Thanks for the information, Dexters. Since I have modified the resource and terrain yields, especially for coastal and sea times, the AI is putting in more cities on the coast, so based on your post, I should expect to see large navies. Also, is the game that I am playing, using Swargey's Archipelago map as a basis, the AI is using its ships much more aggressively, even at Chieftain level, staging counter-landing to attack newly captured cities, and trying to attack my main continent. I am trying to decide if there might be some sort of mimicing subrountine built into it.

As for my post with respect to the WW2 scenario, which is played at Regent level as default, I have noticed that the closer an Allied player gets to Japan, the more aggressive the Japanese AI is. I was playing hot seat, and controlling the US, Britain,and the Netherlands. Once I reached Okinawa/Formosa/Iwo Jima, the Japanese AI began ship sorties to attack my transports, counter-landings against my troops before the islands were taken, and moving troops to China to attack Chinese cities to make up for those lost. The difference between the late game activity and early game lack of aggressiveness was signinficant, and I think indicates that at least in this scenario, the AI was monitoring how closely the Allies were to meeting victory conditions.

 

[dexters]

The AI uses its navy in discrete self supporting groups. It will build warships simply for transporting its troop carriers (and aircraft carriers) and independently build warships for seapower (destroying enemy ships/shore bombardment)

As far as I can tell these units do not get multipurposed. A destroyer on escort duty do not bombard but may attack a nearby unit that is threatening it* (i need more tests to confirm this but that is only my guess)

As for what triggers large navy sizes, I would put more weight into offshore holdings than coastal cities. A large empire owning several islands and or attempting to attack another continent will build a large navy.

In the same game, Babylon who owned 50+ Frigates at one point (now converted to destroyers, BB and Cruisers) had a landing force of 18 units supported by no less than 16 warships as it attempted to invade the zulus on another continent.

This was after its navy obliterated the zulu ships in 2 turns.

Though that impressive feat was overshadowed by its even more impressive blitz of Germany, an Islandcontinent bound Civ. With the support of 22 bombers which it rebased to a city on the continent, Babylon bombed the obsolete rifle defended cities and took over 8 cities in 2 turns with tanks and cavalry.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Though that impressive feat was overshadowed by its even more impressive blitz of Germany, an Islandcontinent bound Civ. With the support of 22 bombers which it rebased to a city on the continent, Babylon bombed the obsolete rifle defended cities and took over 8 cities in 2 turns with tanks and cavalry.

I've noticed that the AI does seem to build lots of planes too. Is there anything that triggers it, or is it just "Civ 3 weirdness?"

BTW does "BB" stand for battleship? You'd think it would be BS...

 

[timerover51]

I've noticed that the AI does seem to build lots of planes too. Is there anything that triggers it, or is it just "Civ 3 weirdness?"

BTW does "BB" stand for battleship? You'd think it would be BS...

If you look in the editor, the AI for each civilization has preferences for unit builds. That influences it to an extent, but I suspect that there is also some mimicing or mirror-imaging of what the human player is doing going on. That would make sense, as the AI would be reacting to the threat posed by the player to it. Conversely, for the human player not to build aircraft gives the AI an assymetry that can be exploited. Either action can be a trigger to build aircraft. However, after thinking about it, if I remember correctly, Dominatrix, you are on Macintosh, which means that you do not have an editor. I am on Macs, but broke down and got a Windows box to use for editing Civ3Complete, which also means that I had to by the Windows version as well.

The US Navy ship designator for Battleship is BB, the rest of the common ship designators are as follows. Aircraft carrier = CV, CVN if nuclear-powered, Heavy Cruiser = CA (comes from the earlier Armored Cruiser), Light Cruiser = CL, Guided Missile Cruiser = CG, CGN if nuclear-powered,
DD = Destroyer, DDG if equipped with guided missiles, SS = submarine,
SSN = nuclear submarine (normal an attack sub), SSBN =nuclear ballistic missile submarine, FF = frigate, FFG = guided missile frigate. CVL was used for the light carriers in WW2 converted from light cruiser hulls, and is sometimes used for smaller foriegn carriers. CVE was used for the WW2 escort carriers, based on merchant ship or tanker hulls, and mainly used for Anti-Submarine Warfare, ASW.

Sometimes you will see the big US carriers labeled as CVA, indicating an Attack Carrier, intended for ship and land attack missions, compared to an ASW carrier, which carries an air complement optimized for anti-submarine work.

 

[dexters]

I've noticed that the AI does seem to build lots of planes too. Is there anything that triggers it, or is it just "Civ 3 weirdness?"

BTW does "BB" stand for battleship? You'd think it would be BS...

I think the AI prioritize bombers regardless of civilization. In most of my games, any decently sized AI will build as many bombers as they can. A slight OT -- when the AI is allowed to use bombard units like bombers, the AI isn't half bad. Due to the bomber's range, the AI can safely mass them deep inside their cores and bomb targets. Planes also can't be captured!

This simply isn't practical for artillery which can be captured. No matter how big a stack, a human can still bring up its own stack of artillery, redline all the escorts, kill them and take the stacks. I suspect this is why artillery bombard was never implemented as a major AI strategy despite multiple requests during development of C3C (they should have made artillery not capturable!)

f you look in the editor, the AI for each civilization has preferences for unit builds. That influences it to an extent, but I suspect that there is also some mimicing or mirror-imaging of what the human player is doing going on

I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. I assume this is why the AI has to do those 'spy' missions. Once they get a spy into a capital, they are allowed to act on their knowledge of what a rival's force structure is like (the AI of course knows where all your units are)

That said the game I am describing is devoid of human involvement. It's 7 AI playing against each other. And no one else had close to 22 bombers. This particular AI was winning handily and could have coasted to an easy SS win, or histograph, perhaps even domination. (on a continents game no less) but It won by culture first.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

...However, after thinking about it, if I remember correctly, Dominatrix, you are on Macintosh, which means that you do not have an editor. I am on Macs, but broke down and got a Windows box to use for editing Civ3Complete, which also means that I had to by the Windows version as well.

The US Navy ship designator for Battleship is BB, the rest of the common ship designators are as follows. Aircraft carrier = CV, CVN if nuclear-powered, Heavy Cruiser = CA (comes from the earlier Armored Cruiser), Light Cruiser = CL, Guided Missile Cruiser = CG, CGN if nuclear-powered,
DD = Destroyer, DDG if equipped with guided missiles, SS = submarine,
SSN = nuclear submarine (normal an attack sub), SSBN =nuclear ballistic missile submarine, FF = frigate, FFG = guided missile frigate. CVL was used for the light carriers in WW2 converted from light cruiser hulls, and is sometimes used for smaller foriegn carriers. CVE was used for the WW2 escort carriers, based on merchant ship or tanker hulls, and mainly used for Anti-Submarine Warfare, ASW.

Sometimes you will see the big US carriers labeled as CVA, indicating an Attack Carrier, intended for ship and land attack missions, compared to an ASW carrier, which carries an air complement optimized for anti-submarine work.

It's an intel Mac, so I also have a windows side for it.

And thank you for those specifications.

That said the game I am describing is devoid of human involvement. It's 7 AI playing against each other. And no one else had close to 22 bombers. This particular AI was winning handily and could have coasted to an easy SS win, or histograph, perhaps even domination. (on a continents game no less) but It won by culture first.

How do you get a game without humans?