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How powerful are the "exploits"?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lily_Lancer, Jun 20, 2020.

  1. GrumboMumbo

    GrumboMumbo Warlord

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    I think the point of this thread is to discover how much certain exploits (mainly gold trading with the AI) affect the speed of victory. I don't think you will ever get an answer to your question about Chess, other than most people here just really enjoy civ6.

    I think once you reach the level that @Lily_Lancer and some of the GoTM players get to, it's only natural to explore optimal paths to victory, and try to figure out which of these may be broken and therefore in need of balancing.

    I am not really a high level player, but I have recently been looking over GoTM games and studying previous posts. It seems to me that there are a lot of elements that I wouldn't call exploits, but they all warp this game for the worse. Including:
    • Late Game Chop yields being too high
    • Rationalism (and its kin) making exactly 10 pop +3 adjacency too important
    • Flat Yields/CS Values force wide play
    • Gold Upgrading Units being too low
    • Gold trading with the AI
    Sorry if I am derailing the thread slightly with this post, but it just felt relevant. I think a lot of players would love to see these game mechanics being changed and the Meta being shaken up, hopefully firaxis may touch upon some of these things in the future patches...


    In regards to your game @Lily_Lancer I didn't think builder first was a common play, wouldn't a scout/military unit be more helpful to your early game? How did you spend that first builders charges?
     
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  2. bitula

    bitula Prince

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    @GrumboMumbo
    So you mean simply producing endless warriors and slingers (or early uniques) and go for domination, meanwhile beeline archer, swordsman and crossbow is not optimal? Or doing that counts as exploit? It's you know, like if only moving the pawns and not touching other peaces would be an exploit in chess. But it is not, because you gain nothing from that: in chess all pieces are equally important. That is not the case with civ games. It's just not the kind of game where you can ever remove all "exploits", its even theoretically not possible. Chess is.
     
  3. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I don't think competitive is the right word to use here. Civ VI isn't a competitive game and most of the discussion here is based on SP, where no one is competing with no one and even the AI isn't much of a competition. Some players might like to show off in forums, but that's hardly competition. What you have in Civ is max/min players, that micromanage everything and try to be as effective as possible, and casual players, that aren't into micromanagement and don't worry too much if they are being as efficient as they possibly can. Both types of players can roleplay, some just are more effective than others while doing it.

    I don't think Civ vs Chess is a good comparison, since Chess is pure strategy, while Civ has an economic side to it. There's no micromanagement, no min/max in Chess. You don't buy/produce units and you don't upgrade them. Only pure combat in Civ is comparable to chess and it's obviously way simpler than the centuries old game.
     
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  4. bitula

    bitula Prince

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    Yes this is a perfect answer and well comprehensible to me. But maybe the solution is then, not to use this word (or similar words)? Or maybe no one is actually using it, sorry then it is my mistake.
     
  5. GrumboMumbo

    GrumboMumbo Warlord

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    @bitula Sorry, I might have confused you. Most of my post was responding to the topic in general. I think Chess is an excellent game, but I agree it's not a good comparison.
     
  6. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Casual usually refers to the amount of time spent on something when it comes to gaming, not the skill level of the player. Hardcore is the opposite. So lily is right when he says casual players can be just as skilled as hardcore players, but he is very much wrong when he calls himself a casual player, seeing as he has often talked how he would play more than 1 game of civ a day.
     
  7. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.21.14 PM.png
    oh, Sweden
    Screen Shot 2020-06-27 at 5.21.27 PM.png Moderator Action: References to modern politics deleted — Browd

    You shall be a city-state, and I'm waiting for you to provide bonus for my campuses!
    Denounce the awkward Swedish civilization immediately.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2020
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  8. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    I'd say it's basically very similar to when one solves a math exercise. Combined with the joy of reverse engineering something. For someone trying to min/max and achieve a fastest win time, it's trying to maximize efficiency. Basically by saying 'what formulas is the game using, and what formulas/algorithms can I use to maximize against that'.

    In many ways it's something of a data analysis/tech geek appeal. I would not be surprised if Lily for example worked/studied something along those lines.

    For something like Civ - or chess - the challenge is only as good as your opponent. I can play civ against someone online and potentially get a significant challenge. I can play chess against my 8 year old nephew and get zero challenge. The main difference is chess has a lot more of a culture and history around it, and thus better competition (both in people and AI).

    There's an entire GOTM forum that's along similar lines, with folks comparing win times/losses and strategies. I wouldn't call it strictly competitive, but it's certainly in a similar vein as this thread.
     
  9. comatosedragon

    comatosedragon Emperor

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    What??! How would you even go about finding out a rule like this? Did you stumble upon this by accident?

    The thing I really liked best about the Civ IV and V forums was the "war academy" where interesting/obscure "techniques" like this could be found. I suppose that's why this is posted in a thread about exploits. But if it is working as intended (a free eureka on era change?); is it in fact an exploit?
     
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  10. bitula

    bitula Prince

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    Well actually this is a valid point. It's similar I guess to what software (including ethical) hacker-s enjoy, about what they are doing. Mainly finding vulnerabilities of a system and either making use of it or just showcasing it to prevent someone to make use of it. Now I would never enjoy such a thing in connection with a game where there is basically no pragmatic (eg.: monetary) benefit from doing this, and don't understand what set of mind is required to enjoy this, but that's rather a philosophical issue not really worth discussing in a game forum. So far Lilly denounces anyone he meets - all I can say: that is not fun at all, but rather grotesque - poor Kristina, what did she do wrong?
    However, min-maxing has nothing to do with this "competitive" game-style. I'm myself am a min-maxer and that is an RP based game style. For example I like to promote my units to the maximum level, not because I think it is optimal, it is definitely not (always), but because I care for that unit and like to follow his evolution. Similarly I don't chop resources, and not because I think sometimes later it will pay off - because in most cases it will not - but because I think that the game looses diversity by removing these features from the map.
     
  11. bbbt

    bbbt Deity

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    That's a tension inherent in the player base. Some players want the AI more like NPCs, some more like competitors to be eliminated. In an ideal world, the game AI could accommodate both, but

    I think we have a different understanding of 'min/max'. For me, it's the opposite of role-play style - it's someone who only cares about the mechanics.

    It afaik actually comes from Dungeons and Dragons and similar role playing games (did you ever play)? That's where I first heard it. There it's someone who is really only concerned about maximinizing certain stat's for their classes maximum damage/fighting ability (the mechanics of the game) and not so much the actual character building/roleplaying aspect of the game. Both (the min/max tactical battle player and the RPG player) are legitimate, but a horrible combo in one DnD game.

    So in the context, I'd be using it as someone who is only concerned about optimizing the mechanics of the game (and finding vulnerabilities of the system as you well put it), regardless if it makes any 'sense' in game context.
     
  12. AntSou

    AntSou Emperor

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    Techs from the previous era get a 20% discount.
     
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  13. bitula

    bitula Prince

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    Yes, sure, that is why I am saying it's a role-play element. When I RP I would increase only STR and CON points as high as possible for fighters and keep INT low, since I believe a fighter is someone who is strong and simple minded and I don't care that that would make the character sub-optimal. "Maxing out" in its literal sense is in most cases sub-optimal compared to balanced builds or artificially thought out builds which ignore RP elements and treat everything as abstract numbers and algorithms applicable for a given set of mechanics. But OK, I do understand that "Min\Max" can simply mean "mechanics-wise optimal" or "meta optimal" which is not about separate attributes but rather overall "build" efficiencies, and well it is possible that the common understanding of this expression is rather this what you say, and not what I think.
     
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  14. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    FWIW Lily does not play the game like everyone else does, no matter what he might try to tell you.
     
  15. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I can't see them as opposites, since you can do both. I might not conquer or pillage my neighbor because of role-play, but I'll still min/max under the limits that I established to myself. Just because I'm roleplaying, it doesn't mean I don't care about the mechanics. I'll still micromanage everything compulsively.
     
  16. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    The last photo of Canada. He managed to get 5 cities at T50, and the number quickly decays to 0 in the next 10 turns

    It seems that Ais are crazy at science. Kristina has 55 science per turn at T64, and, she ranks the 5th?
     
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  17. bitula

    bitula Prince

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    Exactly, and to put it further it is common that min/max is motivated by RP or personal habit which is not for the purpose of achieving overall efficiency. And yes there is after all a desire to win, therefore a balance between RP and optimal play is inevitable. Pure RPing is not desirable in this kind of game in SP, since no one enjoys intentionally loosing. It's possible though on some MP RPG, like neverwinters 2 where you can purely express yourself via dialogs and completely ignore all gamely mechanics, eg.: in situations where a DM is present and awards dialog performance (acting, story telling etc).
     
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  18. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Deity

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    After eliminating Canada, Scythia was denounced by Mapuche and France. Then the time comes to Double war with France and Sweden.
    Screen Shot 2020-07-03 at 9.17.57 AM.png

    Also, building Colosseum at home.
     
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  19. Linklite

    Linklite Prince

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    It's about the mentAlity behind it, specifically about meta gaming.

    For example, I started a game as Alexander in TSL World map, and I knew that Gorgo was just out of sight to the south. A min/maxer, aka a metagamer, would send the warrior south to capture Gorgo's settler, an RP'er wouldn't because the civ leader wouldn't know about it.

    The term is misleading because even real life civs optimised to an extent. The difference between the two is more about how much of the style of gameplay revolves around number crunching, exploiting mechanics and taking advantage of the game nature, and how much around just developing the civilisation and responding to events.

    Just thought of another example of metagaming; settling cities away from coasts to specifically avoid rising sea levels etc.

    To give a parallel from DnD, it's noticing that the DM rolled a perception check when you entered a room to infer that there is a hidden trap or person in the room.
     
  20. Bangau

    Bangau Prince

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    Great read @Lily_Lancer ! Always interesting to see how you play the game.

    Shame of all the 'clutter' in this thread.:crazyeye: Al these 'meta discussions' about how people say things... remember: you know almost nothing of the person you are talking to on here, what age, cultural background, etc. Never assume they mean bad, and even if they do, they're likely trolling you for laughs. The internet has always been that way. Don't fall for it. Thanks moderators, for keeping things civil around here! :thumbsup:
     
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