Bamboocha
Warlord
Four swordsmen, four trebuchets and two longbowmen? That's pretty hard on iron, isn't it?
How should I play England?
- Thread starter Bamboocha
- Start date
Four swordsmen, four trebuchets and two longbowmen? That's pretty hard on iron, isn't it?
Bibor
Doomsday Machine
not a single "mobile" unit?
Strategist83
King
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Messages
- 625
This is wrong. England does have a finance focus. England, in CiV, is focused on two things: Naval domination and a strong [gold] economy.
The deal is that England will want to settle near the coast (and will always start near it due to starting bias) - they're not a land-based civ. This means the commerce tree is especially strong for them with its bonuses to anything naval-related and gold-related since coastal cities are rich in gold but weak in production. One then uses the gold buy discount from Protectionism from the Commerce tree to offset that, converting surplus gold into production through rushbuys.
It is also no coincidence that Big Ben, the English world wonder, is focused on gold. It further increases the focus on and value of gold.
The real problem with England, as was already described, is that its main strength, the superiority of their navy (England has by far the strongest navy in the game) is meaningless against the AI which can't conduct naval warfare properly. Against human opponents, however, the +2 movement means you are guaranteed to get the first strike in any naval combat situation. The value of that cannot be understated. So, while many write off England as a misunderstood and underpowered civ, the fact of the matter is they only appear that way because the AI isn't good enough to make the English UA meaningful - you'll get your 'first strike' regardless. Truth is, however, that 'Sun never Sets' is insanely powerful.
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
It's a typical English football/soccer formation.
thanks for that.
Us American's are too obbsessed with our own "football" to care.
But really, England could roll along with a defensive strategy as well as a an offensive one.
Lexicus
Deity
The increase in Embarked Unit movement can be used with good geography and harbors to save a lot of maintenance on roads.
How precisely is England focused on a strong economy? All of the things England can do with its ocean start can be replicated by any other Civ without exception. Also I'm not entirely sure what the connection is between England the Civ and Big Ben the World Wonder other than they're based on the same RL nation. There's no advantage England gains from Big Ben that any other Civ doesn't get.
No one is denying that Sun Never Sets is strong but the point is that at least one of the three unique aspects of England should focus on the economy. At the moment, none do.
Strategist83
King
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2005
- Messages
- 625
Like I wrote, they have a coastal starting bias. That will often result in high gold income but low production. You can then adopt commerce as likewise described to balance that out. Commerce has excellent synergy with both being gold based and naval based. Big Ben further bolsters that style of play (essentially boosting Mercantilism from the Commerce tree). By both adopting Commerce and building Big Ben, you start having very attractive gold to production conversion rates. England will also want to field a large navy which means that a) settling coastal cities is better than for other civs and b) Seaports are more attractive than usual and it then becomes useful that seaports gain extra gold from Commerce.
Of course we then run into the problem of Commerce possibly still being underpowered but that doesn't mean Firaxis didn't intend England as a financial, gold-based civ.
* I mistakingly wrong Protectionism in the thread above. I meant Mercantilism.
Of course we then run into the problem of Commerce possibly still being underpowered but that doesn't mean Firaxis didn't intend England as a financial, gold-based civ.
* I mistakingly wrong Protectionism in the thread above. I meant Mercantilism.
Small Ashram
Chieftain
Make sure you settle next to the tea resource whenever possible.
Build the curry house in every city
Beeline to research football and then spam hooligans
(I am English
)
To add something constructive: I think there's sadly a lot of truth in the fact it's a difficult civ to play well (rather than just saying it's weak) IMO something needs to be done though.
Lord Nelson was surely turning in his grave that it was literally the last Civ with which i won the game.
I really focused on using the Ships of the Line but even with 5 or 6 of them, couldn't do enough damage to a city for them to have any real point - perhaps the improvement to ranged damage in a patch has sorted this out now.
You are probably best off working with the longbowmen as others have said. Try to use them and a strong & mobile navy to protect a wide coastal-based empire, grabbing resources all over the place. This is possibly what the devs intended and in fairness is quite historical.
Still, I had a lot of fun renaming ships "HMS Vengeance" "HMS Daring" and so forth.
For some reason, with me the "Royal Medical Corps" always ends up taking the enemy's cities.
Build the curry house in every city
Beeline to research football and then spam hooligans
(I am English
)To add something constructive: I think there's sadly a lot of truth in the fact it's a difficult civ to play well (rather than just saying it's weak) IMO something needs to be done though.
Lord Nelson was surely turning in his grave that it was literally the last Civ with which i won the game.
I really focused on using the Ships of the Line but even with 5 or 6 of them, couldn't do enough damage to a city for them to have any real point - perhaps the improvement to ranged damage in a patch has sorted this out now.
You are probably best off working with the longbowmen as others have said. Try to use them and a strong & mobile navy to protect a wide coastal-based empire, grabbing resources all over the place. This is possibly what the devs intended and in fairness is quite historical.
Still, I had a lot of fun renaming ships "HMS Vengeance" "HMS Daring" and so forth.
For some reason, with me the "Royal Medical Corps" always ends up taking the enemy's cities.
Strategist83 - That simply doesn't make sense. There's no correlation between England and Big Ben in Civ 5, nor England and Commerce, to any greater extent than there is between any other Civ and those wonders. The ocean starting bias does not generate gold at all and in fact water tiles are generally inferior to river tiles in gold generation, a river start being a relatively common starting bias for other Civs.
Small Ashram - That's pretty much it in a nutshell alright, although I wouldn't be as critical of the Ship of the Line. And renaming your ships as the English is kinda mandatory.
Small Ashram - That's pretty much it in a nutshell alright, although I wouldn't be as critical of the Ship of the Line. And renaming your ships as the English is kinda mandatory.
Greasy Dave
Prince
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2010
- Messages
- 376
I've just finished an England game at Immortal, large continents.
I'd reccomend the Great Wall, or conquering the civ who gets it, very early in the game.
Build bowmen early game, and get them up to the - equivalent of blitz promotion - for ranged units...can't remember it's name - asap. Great wall and double attacking longbowmen and you're set. Noone can ovrerun you.
What tactics you follow after that is up to you, defensive or offensive. I conquered the continent with an army of bowmen.
I'd reccomend the Great Wall, or conquering the civ who gets it, very early in the game.
Build bowmen early game, and get them up to the - equivalent of blitz promotion - for ranged units...can't remember it's name - asap. Great wall and double attacking longbowmen and you're set. Noone can ovrerun you.
What tactics you follow after that is up to you, defensive or offensive. I conquered the continent with an army of bowmen.
Bamboocha
Warlord
Sounds good, but you didn't say anything about naval strategy. That means you're basically wasting their UA and one of their UU's, which is a waste IMHO.
I like to play England - heres some pointers:
- Make your capital a Great Merchant farm. Normally Great Merchants arent very desirable, but with England you can make very good use of The Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Big Ben and Pentagon in your capital, along with anything inbetween that also give GM points (Mausoleum and Machu Pichu if you have marbles / stone / mountain nearby, Notre Dame always helps).
- Settle Great Merchants around London and try and get it producing as much gold as possible with Commerce's +25% gold bonus.
- For Social Policies I like to take Liberty + Honor early on (Free worker + settler, Representation for cheaper future policies, everything in Honor eventually), top two policies in Patronage for spending your gold on city states, and all of Commerce + Rationalism. (the main priorities are the cheaper unit upgrades from Honor, and cheaper rush buys from Commerce which will combine well with Big Ben + Pentagon later on).
- Keep all your cities coastal. The +2 navy movement bonus makes ships your best form of defense as they can easily move between your cities. Early on just 2 or 3 triremes will keep you very well defended. Delay your offensive war until your UUs become available to take advantage of their bonuses, in the early game focus on building up your Great Merchant + Commerce farm.
- The navy bonus doesnt really help me much for offense, but it is unbelievably godly for defense with a few ships. For offense the Longbow is absolutely fantastic, and you want to be using your longbows as much as possible.
Yea England is not an economically focused Civ at all, the only thing is that the Commerce Policy tree and economic / great merchant wonders all go really well together. All they need though is coastal cities and can be replicated by any Civ. Its just that if you're playing as England, you do want all your cities to be coastal so you can keep them all defended with your super navy. Big Ben + Pentagon simply combine well with Commerce + Honor policy trees. Commerce combines well with coastal cities and a great merchant farm in your capital, and Honor combines well with any civ focused on units, and since England's bonuses are all about Navy + UUs, it simply makes sense putting all of that together, just like you would want to combine Science wonders with either Babylon or Korea.
- Make your capital a Great Merchant farm. Normally Great Merchants arent very desirable, but with England you can make very good use of The Great Lighthouse, Colossus, Big Ben and Pentagon in your capital, along with anything inbetween that also give GM points (Mausoleum and Machu Pichu if you have marbles / stone / mountain nearby, Notre Dame always helps).
- Settle Great Merchants around London and try and get it producing as much gold as possible with Commerce's +25% gold bonus.
- For Social Policies I like to take Liberty + Honor early on (Free worker + settler, Representation for cheaper future policies, everything in Honor eventually), top two policies in Patronage for spending your gold on city states, and all of Commerce + Rationalism. (the main priorities are the cheaper unit upgrades from Honor, and cheaper rush buys from Commerce which will combine well with Big Ben + Pentagon later on).
- Keep all your cities coastal. The +2 navy movement bonus makes ships your best form of defense as they can easily move between your cities. Early on just 2 or 3 triremes will keep you very well defended. Delay your offensive war until your UUs become available to take advantage of their bonuses, in the early game focus on building up your Great Merchant + Commerce farm.
- The navy bonus doesnt really help me much for offense, but it is unbelievably godly for defense with a few ships. For offense the Longbow is absolutely fantastic, and you want to be using your longbows as much as possible.
Yea England is not an economically focused Civ at all, the only thing is that the Commerce Policy tree and economic / great merchant wonders all go really well together. All they need though is coastal cities and can be replicated by any Civ. Its just that if you're playing as England, you do want all your cities to be coastal so you can keep them all defended with your super navy. Big Ben + Pentagon simply combine well with Commerce + Honor policy trees. Commerce combines well with coastal cities and a great merchant farm in your capital, and Honor combines well with any civ focused on units, and since England's bonuses are all about Navy + UUs, it simply makes sense putting all of that together, just like you would want to combine Science wonders with either Babylon or Korea.
Bamboocha
Warlord
Everybody, you've all given me great advice and I've tried using it, but I've come across a few problems (remember, I'm playing England on a Huge sized Small Continents map on Immortal difficulty).
My problems are mostly the following:
-At first I try to get to the compass technology as fast as possible, usually this involves getting writing, philosophy and education as well. I always try to make the Great Lighthouse, which often works. Followed by the Great Library (more often than not fails), the Oracle (which I can get about half of the time) and the Hagia Sophia (works more often than not), so I'm not sure which early wonders I should get by any means neccesary and which ones I can drop. Even then, going after a wonder can be so tempting sometimes...
-As I said, I tend to rush towards astronomy and then navigation to pump out ships of the line quite early, but what usually happens is that I end up with astronomy and one of my neigbhours (yesterday the extremely expansive Romans) declare war on me. That means I start rushing through the lower half of the tech tree (military techs) and stop all building production to pump out enough units to defend my besieged city, usually a process that takes many turns. This means I'm either weak and get stomped in the ground, or have to stop everything my empire is doing to pump out barely enough units to defend myself.
-I can never seem to expand with England. I usually try to delay early wars to get to navigation (the first point in the tech tree where naval combat actually becomes viable) and the longbowmen (which are mad, you can effectively use them as a siege unit without fearing repercussions). However, between upgrading my techs, building wonders, building neccesary wonders and pumping out units in case of a sudden enemy rush, I never find the time to properly expand myself. At best I can expand myself to 4 cities (including my capital) before my happiness takes a major hit or there's some reason I cannot quickly get myself settlers. All this is made worse by the fact that the AI can pop cities out of the ground like they're mushrooms.
-My economy is horrible (though this is a trait of all my games, not just this England centered one), while the AI (mostly Darius) often swims in heaps upon heaps of money, I'm lucky to have 200 gold in my treasury at any given moment.
-Citystates, what to do with them? Bhav recommended me to use great merchants for customs houses rather than trade missions, so I can't do that. Should I buy alliances, attack citystates another citystate has a problem with, or just ignore them alltogether?
EDIT: On a different note, I've found that the best way for me to use ships is to use them as support for my land army, ie. they can take out nasty enemy melee units without fearing repercussions (especially if they're dumb enough to use sea transports) or aiding in the siege of cities, which is why I often let them take the anti-land promotion. Am I using ships properly in this way?
My problems are mostly the following:
-At first I try to get to the compass technology as fast as possible, usually this involves getting writing, philosophy and education as well. I always try to make the Great Lighthouse, which often works. Followed by the Great Library (more often than not fails), the Oracle (which I can get about half of the time) and the Hagia Sophia (works more often than not), so I'm not sure which early wonders I should get by any means neccesary and which ones I can drop. Even then, going after a wonder can be so tempting sometimes...
-As I said, I tend to rush towards astronomy and then navigation to pump out ships of the line quite early, but what usually happens is that I end up with astronomy and one of my neigbhours (yesterday the extremely expansive Romans) declare war on me. That means I start rushing through the lower half of the tech tree (military techs) and stop all building production to pump out enough units to defend my besieged city, usually a process that takes many turns. This means I'm either weak and get stomped in the ground, or have to stop everything my empire is doing to pump out barely enough units to defend myself.
-I can never seem to expand with England. I usually try to delay early wars to get to navigation (the first point in the tech tree where naval combat actually becomes viable) and the longbowmen (which are mad, you can effectively use them as a siege unit without fearing repercussions). However, between upgrading my techs, building wonders, building neccesary wonders and pumping out units in case of a sudden enemy rush, I never find the time to properly expand myself. At best I can expand myself to 4 cities (including my capital) before my happiness takes a major hit or there's some reason I cannot quickly get myself settlers. All this is made worse by the fact that the AI can pop cities out of the ground like they're mushrooms.
-My economy is horrible (though this is a trait of all my games, not just this England centered one), while the AI (mostly Darius) often swims in heaps upon heaps of money, I'm lucky to have 200 gold in my treasury at any given moment.
-Citystates, what to do with them? Bhav recommended me to use great merchants for customs houses rather than trade missions, so I can't do that. Should I buy alliances, attack citystates another citystate has a problem with, or just ignore them alltogether?
EDIT: On a different note, I've found that the best way for me to use ships is to use them as support for my land army, ie. they can take out nasty enemy melee units without fearing repercussions (especially if they're dumb enough to use sea transports) or aiding in the siege of cities, which is why I often let them take the anti-land promotion. Am I using ships properly in this way?
KillingMeSoftly
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2011
- Messages
- 279
I don't play on Immortal and am only breaking into Emperor, so I'm not sure what kind of advice I can offer. But I'd suggest getting a good production city running that will primarily build units. Pikemen and archers are cheap to produce and don't require any iron, so I would make plenty of those as your economy allows. Station an archer in each city and protect them with some pikemen. Having a decent sized military, even if it isn't cutting edge, can typically dissuade the computer from DoW'n you. I would also play peacefully and civilly until you have Longbowmen and Ships of the Line. Just hold on the defensive and don't worry about warmongering until then. I'd also build along the coast when possible so you can support your cities with your navy.
On immortal it might not be wise to hold off early conquests, I'm not sure.
On immortal it might not be wise to hold off early conquests, I'm not sure.
First of all, what kind of victory are you going for? Once you figure that out you can tailor your game around that. Personally, I really feel that an important thing to learn is how to not overextend yourself on wonders. For example, you say that you go for the Great Lighthouse, Great Library, and Oracle. Now without question they're all nice, but are they worth the effort and risk? The Oracle has the same hammer cost as a Library, Watermill, and Stable combined. Unless I'm going for a cultural victory I'd rather get those last 3 even if I was guaranteed to get the Oracle. It just sets you up in a much stronger position than 1 extra policy will. Same for the Great Library, unless you're specifically setting up your tech path to pop a really expensive and immediately useful tech, is it really worth spending all of those early hammers for 1 more tech? Consider that a single RA with Porcelain Tower and Rationalism gives you a tech for way less investment and the GL just feels like a trap to me. Personally, the only wonders I consider worth the effort are PT and, by extension, the HS (since the AI really delays HS so you can pretty much always get it and it saves you 100 hammers from hard building the PT, plus the great person bonus is nice). Obviously in a cultural game you'll want more than that, but for science, domination, and diplomatic victories you really don't need anything else.
Now I can't say as much about your tech path since I only play Pangea, but what are you trying to accomplish with a beeline to Navigation? Are you planning to wage a naval war? If you're going to wage war and aren't alone on your landmass I feel like you may as well focus on land units and conquer your continent first and then set your sights on civs across the ocean.
Edit: Also I'd really recommend buying as many military units as you can rather than building them. After signing RAs the best use of money is probably buying/upgrading units.
Now I can't say as much about your tech path since I only play Pangea, but what are you trying to accomplish with a beeline to Navigation? Are you planning to wage a naval war? If you're going to wage war and aren't alone on your landmass I feel like you may as well focus on land units and conquer your continent first and then set your sights on civs across the ocean.
Edit: Also I'd really recommend buying as many military units as you can rather than building them. After signing RAs the best use of money is probably buying/upgrading units.
Bamboocha
Warlord
I think I'm going for a domination victory, but if that fails I'm willing to settle for science (or maybe culture in a pinch), what should my gameplan be in that case?
Also, I want to make some good use of the naval advantage England has.
Also, I want to make some good use of the naval advantage England has.
Oh, I don't disagree that the strategies you've outlined can be good. In fact, the Big Ben + Commerce mix is something mentioned in the England strategy guide in the War Academy. Great Merchants + Pentagon are grand, although the GM can often pale in comparison to a properly used GS or GE, and the Pentagon comes rather late. That said, you're bang on the money nonetheless. Not too sure I'd recommend Honour, but I can see the thinking behind it.
Bamboocha said:
I play Immortal/Small Continents myself but usually on a Standard or Large sized map, so take my advice with that in mind.
In terms of wonders the priority with England is Great Lighthouse/Great Library and then HS/PT. After that it depends on playstyle. Whether you go for the Lighthouse or the Library is based on difficulty. On Immortal the Library is better, the extra speed and sight might matter more if the AI was more competent at warfare but as it is the real fight against the AI is in the economy and for that the Library wins out.
The Astronomy beeline can leave you weak in military techs. Geography, especially in small continents, is your friend here: ideally you'll have your own island so secure entry routes to your island early on and don't allow open borders with your neighbours to help ensure your internal territory for later on. If you don't have an island to yourself you have two options, either take your neighbour out (this may sacrifice the beeline - go for Longbows instead if it does) and follow the above, or if you have more than one neighbour bribe them to fight each other. I wouldn't get too hung up on getting the Astronomy beeline in the fewest number of techs possible. The beeline is only of any use if you're actually around to make use of it, so if you need to get Longbows first, get Longbows first.
Four cities should be sufficient in the early game, perhaps drop it to 2-3 well placed cities and try to go taller than you normally would. Also consider taking Tradition (and particularly Monarchy) as well. Liberty is strong, but Monarchy with a strong pop capital can be a better choice, much better in some cases.
The economy problems are potentially more serious. Could you upload a save game or two? (I think this is done on the attachments section when you're posting - paperclip symbol along the top line.) Without more detail, it's hard to comment too much on this.
CS - These are situational. Don't purchase their friendship unless you have a reason to have them on your side: Cultural victory, strategically placed City State, needed luxuries/bonus etc.
Naval promotions - In short, yes. Against the AI taking anti-land is your best bet (although bear in mind this doesn't apply to attacks against Cities). Taking the anti-ship one would make more sense if the enemy floated more ships or in MP.
Victory choice - Once you've scouted your initial starting cities/neighbours you should decide how to win. Basic stuff but taking too long to decide between VCs can kill off your game. Sometimes VCs are decided by circumstances and there's little that can be done about that due to how the AI handles diplomacy.
ShahJahanII
Homesick Alien
Yes, agreed.
But we could also reserve that for a Dutch or Portuguese civ if there ever is one.
While you may need to work on developing your economy-management chops, it's hard to use the AI as a benchmark. Some combinations of AI behavioral attitudes and bonuses alchemize together somehow such that on higher difficulty settings many AI civs will be producing just impossible amounts of gold, and Darius usually is one of them. (Conversely, there are some civs that somehow crater their economies and never, ever recover.) You don't really need to be matching the gold production of the most successful AI civs to win, even going for a diplomatic victory, because they're just not that great at parlaying their effectively infinite gold into victory. (If they were, it would be necessary to patch this out.) You can absolutely trump Darius even with a mortal man's economy.
