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How to balanced newly created Specialists

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modding Tutorials & Reference' started by SaibotLieh, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    This tutorial is not about the actual process of creating specialist for Civ4, but about the yields that should be allocated to them to give them the same level of impact as the other specialists.
    For calculating how much yields a specialist should provide it helps to imaging that each specialist has a certain amount of skillpoint (SP) that can be converted into certain yields. A normal specialist has 12 SP and a great specialist has 18 SP. With these SP, you can go shopping now:

    :food: = 6 SP
    :hammers: = 4 SP
    :commerce: = 4 SP (only a recommendation)
    :gold: = 2 SP
    :science: = 2 SP
    :culture: = 1 SP
    :espionage: = 1 SP
    :gp: = 2 SP

    Further, if you are using Supercheese's Specialist Enhancements I would recommend:

    :) = 6 SP
    :health: = 6 SP

    So for example, if you want to make an entertainer, you could give him

    - 1 :food: => -6 SP
    + 2 :gold: => +4 SP
    + 2 :culture: => +2 SP
    + 1 :) => +6 SP
    + 3 :gp: => +6 SP

    Altogether 12 SP.

    And that's it. I would further recommend to give normal specialists always 3 :gp: to make them consistent with the other specialists.

    If you are interested in the my math that is behind these numbers, see the next post.
     
  2. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    To get to the numbers, I made the given SP to each specialist my unknown x and got the following equations through the six specialists:

    x = 1:science: + 4:culture:
    x = 2:hammers:
    x = 3:gold:
    x = 1:hammers: + 1:gold:
    x = 3:science:
    x = 1:science: + 4:espionage:

    (I've ignored the :gp: for now, I'll come back to them later)

    With this it is easy to follow:

    :science: = x/3
    :gold: = x/3
    :hammers: = x/2
    And further:
    :culture: = 1/2:science: = x/6
    :espionage: = 1/2:science: = x/6

    Giving :culture: and :espionage: the value of 1 gives the numbers above with the exception for :hammers:, which I set to 4 to make the great specialists more consistent. The engineer is just a bit more powerful this way. The SP for each specialist is 6 this way.

    Next post: Great specialists
     
  3. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    With the great specialists further information can be collected. I've made their SP to my second unknown y:

    y = 3:gold: + 12:culture: => y = 3*2 + 12*1 = 18
    y = 3:hammers: + 3:science: => y = 3*4 + 3*2 = 18
    y = 1:food: + 6:gold:
    y = 2:hammers: + 5:gold: => 2*4 +5*2 = 18
    y = 1:hammers: + 6:science: => 1*4 + 6*2 = 16
    y = 3:science: + 12:espionage: => 3*2 + 12*1 = 18

    As one can see, with the exception of the scientist all great people add up to 18 SP. With this information, the value of :food: can be calculated:

    y = 1:food: + 6:gold: <=> :food: = y - 6:gold: => :food: = 18 - 6*2 = 6

    If further one normal specialist is given the same value of two food (which would be enough to create another one with this specialist, but nothing more) the value of one :gp: can be followed. So far each normal specialist had 6 SP, but the real value of x is given by this equation:

    x = 6 + 3*:gp: = 2*:food: = 12 <=> 3*:gp: = 6 <=> :gp: = 2

    And this is the story about how I got all those lovely number. ;)
    For my recommendation, I gave :commerce: the same value as :hammers: and I valued :) and :health: to have the same worth as :food:.
     
  4. Chaos wing

    Chaos wing Chieftain

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    Thats pretty good however there's a minor flaw. :food: is always worth more then :health: as :yuck: an be "cancelled out" by extra :food: at a 1 for 1 ratio, meanig :health: should be worth slightly less then :food: (~4 or 5) unless you add extra penaltys for :yuck: (witch some mods do). otherwise very good work.
     
  5. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    Thanks, maybe I've not given the :) and :health: enough thought. They might be a bit weaker than :food:. I would in any case advise to only use :) and :health: and not :mad: or :yuck: for specialists because the last two might be no real malus if the city has a large surplus of :) or :health:.
     
  6. maurcus

    maurcus Warlord

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    cool thanks
    what is experience worth?
     
  7. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    Good question. I think the military instructor specialist gives two experience points and nothing else, right? So I would say one experience point is worth 6 SP.
     
  8. Chiyochan

    Chiyochan King

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    I dont see a problem if the city has unusually high happiness in order to take advantage of using something that's inherently annoying. I certainly wouldn't give it as big an impact as -6 though.
     
  9. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    Since you do your maths from normal specs and apply it to great specs, let me provide the other alternative for this. :D

    I choose to do the calculations from great specs, because there are bigger numbers to calculate.
    Since normal specs have lesser numbers, some of them may have been rounded down, so using bigger numbers may be more accurate.

    1) Using Great Engineer and Great Scientist
    2 :hammers: = 3 :science:
    2) Using Great Enginner and Great Spy
    1 :hammers: = 4 :espionage:
    3) Using Great Priest and Great Scientist
    1 :hammers: + 5 :gold: = 6 :science:
    Since 1 :hammers: = 1.5 :science:
    10 :gold: = 9 :science:
    Since this ratio is pretty close to 1 : 1, let's just assume 1 :gold: = 1 :science:
    4) Assuming this is true, then Using Great Artist and Great Spy
    1 :culture: = 1 :espionage:
    5) Lastly, assuming true again, then using Great Merchant and Great Scientist
    1 :food: = 1 :hammers:

    Thus, to assign points:
    :espionage: = :culture: = 3
    :hammers: = :food: = 12
    :gold: = :science: = 8

    Thus,
    Great Engineer = 60
    Great Artist = 60
    Great Scientist = 60
    Great Spy = 60
    Great Priest = 62
    Great Merchant = 60
    Thus, Great Military Instructor = 60 as well means XP = 30

    For normal specs
    Engineer = 24
    Artist = 20
    Scientist = 24
    Spy = 20
    Priest = 20
    Merchant = 24

    P.S.
    This is done out of boredom and curiousity. Not to contradict you :D
     
  10. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    I agree. I don't think one shouldn't use negative happiness or health at all, but I do think that it should be worth less points than the positive ones.

    You've got some nice numbers there as well. Of course there are more than one interpretation possible, since there seems to be no solution where all specialists add up the same.

    While my numbers match up better for the normal specialists, yours do so for the great specialists. The only problem I see at the moment with your numbers is that :gp: seems to have no worth at all. You could create a normal specialist that gives 2 :food: (24 point) and thus get the 3 :gp: "for free".

    But on the other hand you could also that one has to make that little fellow happy and keep him healthy as well, which should be worth the 3 :gp:. Again no absolute solution possible I guess. :crazyeye:
     
  11. maurcus

    maurcus Warlord

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    i was working on some numbers the other day and came up with these numbers
    :culture:=13 :food:=102 :gold:=18
    :espionage:=10 :hammers:=40 :science:=30
    therefore you get these numbers
    GE:3:hammers:, 3:science: =120+90 =210
    GM:6:commerce:, 1:gold: =108+102 =210
    GS:6:science:, 1:hammers: =180+40 =220
    GP:2:hammers:, 5:gold: =80+90 =170
    GA:12:culture:, 3:gold: =156+54 =210
    GSP:12:espionage:, 3:science: =120+90 =210

    thus GS are slightly more than others while the GP are slightly less powerful these numbers only work for Gpeople
     
  12. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    A nice try, but I think the problem here is that if you only look at the GPs you have 6 equations to calculate 7 variables (the 6 commerce/yield values plus the total value of one GP) which per se can not lead to a unique calculation, even if each variable has a "real" and definite value we not know of. For normal specialists the situation is a bit better since there is no food variable present, so we have the same number of variables and equations.

    But again, one can see that there seems to be no absolute solution, so one has to choose which solutions fits best on a personal base.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    GREAT thread!

    I was wondering if you'd be willing to give the basic Leader Trait features the same kind of analysis workup?
     
  14. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    Thank you. :)

    I'm afraid something like this is not possible for leader traits, since they offer benifits from too many different sources. Everything I could do with that is make more or less educated guesses, but nothing I could really back up with some calculations.
     
  15. maurcus

    maurcus Warlord

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    i was bored once again and came up with these numbers
    :hammers:=600
    :science:=400
    :gold:=360
    :culture:=160
    :espionage:=150
    and :food:=840

    thes numbers are for Great Specialists Only
    thus all GSP=3000 points
     
  16. SaibotLieh

    SaibotLieh Emperor

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    Your efforts are honourable, but again, you won't get any definite solution. In fact if you restrain this on the great specialists only you can use any numbers you like as long as the following is true:

    2 :hammers: = 3 :science:
    5 :gold: = 12 :espionage:
    1 :food: = 12 :culture: - 3 :gold:
     

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