How to best use Protective

Korea gets a UU that counters melee and would ideally be protected by longbows - great for a non metal, non horse start (which I had with him).

Are you sure about this? Horse archers are a counter to siege units. Longbows (and crossbows) are not particularly good at protecting a stack from horse archers - offensively, it's a tie, defensively, horse archers withdraw bonus gives them the advantage. Protective doesn't help at all; with the exception of Keshiks, horse archers are immune to first strikes. Against melee units in the open field, notably macemen, hwachas may be good on the offence but both longbows and hwachas are vulnerable when defending.

A hwacha/crossbow stack would be better (defensive bonuses against melee) but spears are needed as well to protect against mounted units.
 
Try Hwachha + Jumbos nothing has a chance against that stack except for enemy jumbos or mass cat saccing. Even then your hwachhas will be immune to collateral.
 
I forgot about elephants. They're certainly pretty tough combined. Well promoted spearmen/pikemen/macemen would be required to beat such units. Crossbows could be added for extra protection. It doesn't change the fact that protective really doesn't provide much synergy for the Koreans.
 
Exactly, there is no synergy between the traits and UU.

Still, I am starting to like Korea. Each unique aspect helps a different part of your game. Granted, Protective is weak. But the free first strike for Crossbows and Grenadiers is worth something.

Also, my previous question about walls adding to your power score - still not sure about that. I will have to check it in the game sometime.
 
No you cannot beat jumbo-hwachha with pikes. Reason Hwachha has a 50% bonus against melee units.So pikes ,axes, swords get destroyed by hwachhas. Only way you might destroy the pack is superior numbers , suicide cats , superior technology or your own jumbos.
 
You're right. Hwachas don't recieve defensive bonuses so I assumed that the melee bonus only applied when on the offensive - I'm fairly sure that this happens for some unit.
 
You're right. Hwachas don't recieve defensive bonuses so I assumed that the melee bonus only applied when on the offensive - I'm fairly sure that this happens for some unit.
not for hwachas
pretty good UU :)

Protective really shines when you draft riflemen.
Draftees are low on Xps, but with the free promotion, your draftees are not totally naked.
 
Short version: Protective encourages you to sit back and develop during the early years, as well as pushing you to research towards Longbows and Crossbows. To do that you will need to go down the southern research path towards Feudalism and Machinery, which has opportunity costs that I talk about a bit more below.

In short I think it encourages the player to alter their playstyle and research priorities from some strong strategies (centered around melee units and Math-based techs) that have been developed and refined since the game came out. There might be some great plays to be made with a protective/religious game, but they seem to be more specialized plays which makes them less robust and flexibile, therefore harder to apply as general principles when playing the early game.

----------
When you compare Protective with aggressive its shortcomings are evident:
Unit Comparison: Early game, melee units are superior to archery units. Gunpowder units I'm willing to call a draw.
Cheap Building: Cheap barracks are leagues better than walls and castles. Barracks also scale and allow flexibility - it improves the value of each hammer you invest, and you choose which promo it goes towards. Walls and Castles are fixed investments that don't scale in value and are rarely used.
Promotions: Protective gets two free promos at no XP cost, and Drill was changed to open up the same promo paths that Combat 1 does. Protective has the edge here.

Looking at all of those, it seems clear to me that the cheap building is where protective falls apart. If Protective allowed cheap barracks I think it would often be considered superior to aggressive, but I've heard that it wasn't allowed to preserve the defensive flavor of the trait.

Or perhaps even something like a 10% universal bonus while defending inside your own cultural borders would be warranted. Or maybe remove the free CG promo but make it so that all archery/gunpowder units built in a city with walls get CG1 for free.
-----------------------
The issue is larger than the comparison between Aggressive and Protective traits - it's also about which units and technologies it rewards you for pursuing. We've seen the dominant strategies in SP gravitate towards Bronze Working, Civil Service, and the cluster of techs around Mathematics (Calendar, Construction, Currency, Literature). It's rewarding to skip archery (put your beakers elsewhere) and Feudalism is prohibitively expensive to research in addition to being along a less robust research path (Religious instead of Mathematics).
Unit types: Archery units are strictly archers until the early AD years and Feudal Longbows.
Melee has more variety that you can tailor to fit your needs - robust and flexible, again. Spearmen, Axemen, and Swordsmen.
Machinery opens up both crossbows and macemen, so I'll call that a draw, but shortly after you can grab Engineering with increased road movement and pikes, which handily counter Knights, the beefiest unit on the southern/religious tech path (which again has lots of opportunity costs).
 
Are you sure about this? Horse archers are a counter to siege units. Longbows (and crossbows) are not particularly good at protecting a stack from horse archers - offensively, it's a tie, defensively, horse archers withdraw bonus gives them the advantage. Protective doesn't help at all; with the exception of Keshiks, horse archers are immune to first strikes. Against melee units in the open field, notably macemen, hwachas may be good on the offence but both longbows and hwachas are vulnerable when defending.

A hwacha/crossbow stack would be better (defensive bonuses against melee) but spears are needed as well to protect against mounted units.

I tend to hug the hills and forests as much as possible with my invasion stacks, so Longbows beat horse archers when they get a terrain advantage. And once the city is captured, they defend it easily. The drill promotions become pretty useful for mopping up on a city attack too.

Its not a huge synergy I'll admit, but in a game where I found myself with no metals or horse or elephants, I appreciated protective and Hwachas hugely.
 
So is there any way to make Protective useful for Saladin? Is he basically only Protective for trying to get a cultural victory and using protective units to protect your cities in the late game culture race?

I don't think he is ideal for culture at all. For culture I want industrious, financial or philosophical.

But spiritual and protective could be considered both war traits. You can make sure every unit you build gets +4 xp from civics while still getting the benefits of other civics for building and research by clever queue management.

Can longbows get cover? Drill Two + Cover might be an interesting combination for an attacking longbowman. At the same time you can build CG3 longbows to hold the cities you take - let the AI waste their attacks on those.

Drafting is a good fit with protective and a spiritual leader finds it easy to switch in and out of draft mode.

The UU doesn't have any particular synergy, except that it doesn't require any resources. Maybe Saladin is well suited to warring when you don't have any starting military resources.
 
I don't think he is ideal for culture at all. For culture I want industrious, financial or philosophical.

But spiritual and protective could be considered both war traits. You can make sure every unit you build gets +4 xp from civics while still getting the benefits of other civics for building and research by clever queue management.

Can longbows get cover? Drill Two + Cover might be an interesting combination for an attacking longbowman. At the same time you can build CG3 longbows to hold the cities you take - let the AI waste their attacks on those.

Drafting is a good fit with protective and a spiritual leader finds it easy to switch in and out of draft mode.

The UU doesn't have any particular synergy, except that it doesn't require any resources. Maybe Saladin is well suited to warring when you don't have any starting military resources.

I disagree with this. I think Saladin is good (not the best) for culture because of his building and Spiritual. He is able to find many religions and build many shrines with his great prophets from the Madassas. The Madassas also give +4 culture instead of +2, which isn't a huge bonus, but if you consider that its culture doubles after 1000 years, that's 8 culture points per turn. I find spiritual good for culture because the cheap temples are huge when you have three religions. Build temples in all your cities, then build the cathedrals in your culture cities, etc...
 
Back
Top Bottom