How to communicate with gun nuts?

[shadowplay]

...I'm sorry I disturbed your black panther party.

 

[Formaldehyde]

In the past...then there must be some sort of production records. And yet even in review I see no history of illegal firearms being manufactured. Were there big secret factories somewhere?

Or are you trying to dance around the fact that only legal firearms are produced, and legal firearms are actually the source of illegal firearms, therefore increasing the number of legal firearms increases the source and does in fact increase the availability of illegal firearms?

It is a quite simple problem to resolve. Require every single gun purchase to be approved and recorded using a modern computerized database, along with requiring every single firearm be test fired when it is manufactured and the bullet sent to the ATF.

Then you send those to prison who let firearms get into the hands of criminals without the proper procedures being followed, as well as banning them from selling or even owning another firearm.

The system doesn't work properly because the NRA and our congressmen have assured that it is hopelessly broken with all sorts of absurd loopholes, including not even allowing the ATF to computerize the data they now have on legal firearm purchases out of sheer paranoia.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I was looking for a much simpler solution.

Without any considerations about controlling legal and/or illegal firearms, let's agree to stop using absurd arguments like "since crimes are committed with illegal firearms the number of legal firearms has nothing to do with anything," when there is a glaringly obvious one step direct proportionality connecting them.

I don't really care all that much about firearms, I just can't abide really poorly constructed arguments.

 

[cardgame]

So your whole point is that firearms should stop being made? Absurd leap from the status quo.

 

[Gucumatz]

I think Forma's response with the posting of a Ted N video, might in a way be actually the best response. Hide the language in something gun nuts love, or combine your point by stating it alongside something they hate/love more.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So your whole point is that firearms should stop being made? Absurd leap from the status quo.

Absurd leap, without a doubt.

I already said that my interest was that your argument was grotesquely flawed. I frankly don't care about how many guns there are, legal or otherwise. I'm only in this to see how to get around the way gun nuts use fatally flawed arguments...as you immediately did...and then when their fatally flawed argument is pointed out as fatally flawed leap into absurd accusations...as you just did.

Thanks for illustrating the problem so clearly. Now, back to looking for a solution...

 

[Formaldehyde]

I was looking for a much simpler solution.

Without any considerations about controlling legal and/or illegal firearms, let's agree to stop using absurd arguments like "since crimes are committed with illegal firearms the number of legal firearms has nothing to do with anything," when there is a glaringly obvious one step direct proportionality connecting them.

I don't really care all that much about firearms, I just can't abide really poorly constructed arguments.

So who is saying that? The only "poorly constructed argument" I see here is the strawman dealing with illegal firearms production. That doesn't seem to be what Cardgame was stating at all.

It seems fairly obvious that if you really want to stop the use of illegal firearms in the commission of crimes is to make them far more difficult to acquire and to punish those to do sell firearms to known criminals, both of which is completely different to what the situation currently is.

That this is indeed an extremely valid argument to use against gun nuts because their only recourse is to whine about how paranoid they are about the government someday confiscating their favorite playtoys.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So who is saying that? The only "poorly constructed argument" I see here is the strawman dealing with illegal firearms production. That doesn't seem to be what Cardgame was stating at all.

It seems fairly obvious that if you really want to stop the use of illegal firearms in the commission of crimes is to make them far more difficult to acquire and to punish those to do sell firearms to known criminals, completely unlike what the situation currently is.

The vast majority of gun crime is committed with illegal firearms anyway, so no, it won't make any difference.

The statement here is unsupportable. The number of illegal firearms is directly proportional to the number of legal firearms, as legal firearms are the source of illegal firearms. I pointed that out in an indirect manner when I asked about illegal firearms manufacturing, since I always try not to take absurd statements too seriously, but when he opted not to get it I did point out the obvious.

Now, in the case of the "if this guy had had a gun the outcome would have been way better" statement, which is equally unsupportable since the outcome if the guy had had a gun would very likely be worse, and at best the outcome would have been the same (guy has a gun but keeps it hidden so the carjackers never know it), I am somewhat at a loss.

Again, I don't directly care. I don't know the guy, and if he had wound up shot full of holes I can't say that it would make any difference to me at all. But the blatantly crazy statement, and the fact that there are a whole lot of people lining up behind it, and the fact that it fits a genus of comments of similar absurdity that seem to be made after every such situation; put together that really holds my attention.

 

[cardgame]

Manufacturing isn't really that significant, though. We already have a 1:1 ratio of guns/people. MFG is putting out ~5m per year, population growth is ~2.5m.

Now use the actual stats of the guns used to commit crime (protip: handguns almost exclusively) and that MFG'd number shrinks to match population growth. This can be almost completely ruled out, therefore, as any significance to an increase in illegal firearms.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Manufacturing isn't really that significant, though. We already have a 1:1 ratio of guns/people. MFG is putting out ~5m per year, population growth is ~2.5m.

Now use the actual stats of the guns used to commit crime (protip: handguns almost exclusively) and that MFG'd number shrinks to match population growth. This can be almost completely ruled out, therefore, as any significance to an increase in illegal firearms.

I already said that I brought up manufacturing facetiously. I'm curious though. Now I'm genuinely trying to follow here.

Your position seems to be that no process of legalization/deregulation will have any impact on the actual number of legal firearms. We are manufacturing what we are manufacturing, and there are all the guns about that are about, and that's such a number that it is beyond affecting.

Since it would not actually impact the number of legal firearms, it follows that it wouldn't impact the number of illegal firearms.

Is that the idea?

 

[Borachio]

How to communicate with gun nuts?

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

It's the only language they understand.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How to communicate with gun nuts?

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

It's the only language they understand.

I KNEW that I could count on you!

 

[Agent327]

How to communicate with gun nuts?

Good question. My impression is it is very, very hard. 'Cause guns, second amendment, etc etc. Any incident (with or without guns): 'second amendment!' So the basic argument is: if only more people had guns! Which is odd, as indeed more and more people do have guns. And yet: incidents. The logical connection simply does not register.

 

[bhavv]

The vast majority of gun crime is committed with illegal firearms anyway, so no, it won't make any difference.

If firearms are legal, then how are gun crimes committed with illegal firearms, if those firearms were legally purchased in the first place?

 

[Colonel]

Violent crime will always happen, looking through the madness of the world to see that guns are the problem is to ignore the greater issue. If you take away guns, knives will be used or other crude instruments. Now I'm not one to say that the system is perfect as is, far from it. We need stricter controls on who may have a gun or knife for that matter. We need to, at least in the United States, come up with a better way to classify weapons and what sale restrictions apply to them. Now I personally own over 10 firearms along with a wide assortment of blades/knives/etc. So I'm not a lefty demanding they do a mass confiscation but we do need tighter controls on weapons and an overhaul to the concealed carry system in the US. We should remove CCW permits from the States and make it a Federal system. Stricter requirements should be put in place, for instance in the state that I currently reside I wasn't even required to qualify with my gun that I use for conceal carry. Simply pay a fee, pass a low-level backround check, get a permit.

Also per most recent data, the number of gun-owners in the US is actually going down, but the overall number of guns in civilian hands has gone up. Most gun owners are similar to me, we have a wide assortment of weaponry and ammo.

 

[bhavv]

That still doesn't answer the question. Why does every country where firearms are illegal have fewer gun crimes than the USA?

Knives are at least somewhat easier to defend against than guns.

 

[Colonel]

That still doesn't answer the question. Why does every country where firearms are illegal have fewer gun crimes than the USA?

Knives are at least somewhat easier to defend against than guns.

That is a complicated question at best. Yes we have too free of access to weapons in this country but that is how we have always been since our founding. We have more guns and weak laws in place which leads to higher gun violence. Now the far left will go to the extreme and say that we need to do mass confiscations but that simply isn't feasible because there is no way to track down weapons in circulation. Ignoring the fact of course that if you tried to confiscate weapons it would end very badly.

 

[Formaldehyde]

If firearms are legal, then how are gun crimes committed with illegal firearms, if those firearms were legally purchased in the first place?

Criminals with records are typically not allowed to purchase firearms. But thanks to the NRA gun nuts and Congress there are a ton of loopholes which make it quite easy for them to acquire them without undergoing the background check they must complete at a licensed firearm dealer.

 

[bhavv]

Or you know, firearms could just be made illegal? Like the rest of the developed world?

 

[JollyRoger]

If the 2nd Amendment is really a right that shall not be infringed, then if you are not currently incarcerated, you should be able to possess.