ScarletFox
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
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How many units and what kind of units, at average, do people mobilize before they go to war with a civilization that are equal as powerful as yourself?
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How to compose an army?
- Thread starter ScarletFox
- Start date
Personally it depends on what defenders are arrayed against me, but my first comment would be I try to go to war when the other Civ is weaker than me.
But basic stack composition pre Medieval is,
Lots and lots of axes, couple of spears protection, 2 move unit (horse archer, chariot) for pillaging and/or some archers for garrison if I'm taking the city.
Then it's maces for taking the city, crossbows/pikemen defence of stack, knights pillage and longbows/crossbows defence of the city and of course catapults/trebs for defence lowering, couple of suicide siege weapons etc
But basic stack composition pre Medieval is,
Lots and lots of axes, couple of spears protection, 2 move unit (horse archer, chariot) for pillaging and/or some archers for garrison if I'm taking the city.
Then it's maces for taking the city, crossbows/pikemen defence of stack, knights pillage and longbows/crossbows defence of the city and of course catapults/trebs for defence lowering, couple of suicide siege weapons etc
ScarletFox
Chieftain
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all right! Thx for fast respond... but how many axes? are we talking about around 5-10 to take one city, with lets say four cutting edge units, or more axes?
Gooblah
Heh...
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It all depends on the composition of their defense.
For example, during the Ancient/Classical Eras, defense is primarily Archers, Spearmen, and Swordsmen. Thus, send in Swords, Axes, and (if you're that advanced) Catapults. To replace suicide-siege units which soften up enemy stacks by damaging them, use Chariots with Flanking promotions, which give them a chance to withdraw and attack again. Once the stacks are weak (or all your Mounted Units are dead
), attack with the Swords/Axes.
During the Medieval/Renaissance Eras, defense becomes wider with Pikemen, Longbowmen, Crossbowmen, and Catapults all integrated into defense. Bring in Macemen, Knights (for pillaging), Catapults/Trebuchets for lowering city defense, spare Siege Units for suicide attacks, and the occasional Crossbowman or Pikeman for stack defense. Melee Units should be given either City Raider promotions, or Combat I/Shock or Cover. Pikemen should be given Combat I/Medic I/Medic II to heal the stack.
As Gunpowder/Rifing becomes available, use Grenadiers, Riflemen, and Cannons. Cavalry should be brought in for pillaging, Worker-stealing, and for quick attacks on enemy stacks.
Finally, in the Modern Era, Infantry, Artillery, Tanks, and Gunships become available. Gunships are Mounted Units with extra movement. Tanks are heavy Mounted Units. As you advance further, Mobile SAMs/Artillery (BTS only) become available. Lastly, Air Units can be used to soften up stacks and bomb city defense.
Edit: Usually a 2:1 ratio of attackers to defenders will do the trick, unless your units are promoted well enough to lessen the ratio to 3:2 or something like that.
For example, during the Ancient/Classical Eras, defense is primarily Archers, Spearmen, and Swordsmen. Thus, send in Swords, Axes, and (if you're that advanced) Catapults. To replace suicide-siege units which soften up enemy stacks by damaging them, use Chariots with Flanking promotions, which give them a chance to withdraw and attack again. Once the stacks are weak (or all your Mounted Units are dead
), attack with the Swords/Axes. During the Medieval/Renaissance Eras, defense becomes wider with Pikemen, Longbowmen, Crossbowmen, and Catapults all integrated into defense. Bring in Macemen, Knights (for pillaging), Catapults/Trebuchets for lowering city defense, spare Siege Units for suicide attacks, and the occasional Crossbowman or Pikeman for stack defense. Melee Units should be given either City Raider promotions, or Combat I/Shock or Cover. Pikemen should be given Combat I/Medic I/Medic II to heal the stack.
As Gunpowder/Rifing becomes available, use Grenadiers, Riflemen, and Cannons. Cavalry should be brought in for pillaging, Worker-stealing, and for quick attacks on enemy stacks.
Finally, in the Modern Era, Infantry, Artillery, Tanks, and Gunships become available. Gunships are Mounted Units with extra movement. Tanks are heavy Mounted Units. As you advance further, Mobile SAMs/Artillery (BTS only) become available. Lastly, Air Units can be used to soften up stacks and bomb city defense.
Edit: Usually a 2:1 ratio of attackers to defenders will do the trick, unless your units are promoted well enough to lessen the ratio to 3:2 or something like that.
Draknith
King
First off if the nation you're attacking is very weak and you want to stay on power with them, you're setting yourself up for failure. I generally approach my military on a more personal sense. I will build army divisions (smaller unit groups of various different units) After I think I have my own nations defenses set up to the point I'm happy with them, I'll build external conflict armies. Granted you want to make sure you're on par with the more advanced civs, but if you're ahead the most powerful (military) nation that doesn't mean you should stop building.
I would say there's no real number for what's right and wrong. Just build until you are personally satisfied. If you're destroyed, you need to plan for more. If you have too many, you need to wage more war.
I would say there's no real number for what's right and wrong. Just build until you are personally satisfied. If you're destroyed, you need to plan for more. If you have too many, you need to wage more war.
But watch out for Protective leaders and Mali when Skirmishers are around. Then increase the ratio to 3:1.
In general however many units I send is usually not quite enough
You want enough not just to take your first target but have enough to keep the momentum going even after leaving a garrision and wounded units behind.
40% Siege. 40% Stack defenders (Shock axes and the likes) 20% City raider and preferably a medic unit. (I play Agg. AI, the AI will build lots more of axes and stuff then)
Later I do same amount of siege but use loads of knights and stuff instead of stack defenders (they do both
, attack and defend, just promote them properly no flanking!)
As to how many, that depends. Early game 6-7 cats and 10 or so other units should do the trick. (I usually start before I get this number and reinforce during the war) Late game you should have fought enough wars to get a sense of how many units the AI's have
Later I do same amount of siege but use loads of knights and stuff instead of stack defenders (they do both
, attack and defend, just promote them properly no flanking!)As to how many, that depends. Early game 6-7 cats and 10 or so other units should do the trick. (I usually start before I get this number and reinforce during the war) Late game you should have fought enough wars to get a sense of how many units the AI's have
ScarletFox
Chieftain
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Ok! Thx for all the great tips everyone!
As a summary:
As a summary:
If you are seeking for guide to "Effective Composition And Use Of The Offensive Military Stack In Civilization IV", then I think you should read this strategy article created by Sisiutil. I think it pretty much has it all.
The article is in PDF format, and you can download it from here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4518097
The article is in PDF format, and you can download it from here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4518097
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Rule of thumb, if you are as advanced as the enemy, bring 1+ siege per defender, 1-2 main attackers (CR melee units, normally) per defender, plus the loose crew (medic, pike, horse pillager, etc.)
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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If you war alot you'll get a feel for it. One piece of advice though: lots of siege.
I understand in BTS they nerfed it heavily by removing its ability to kill. However, it still bombards, and still does collateral damage, and that's what you need it for. Weakening enemy troops so that your non-siege kills them with high odds makes your army A LOT more hammer efficient.
After that, just balance the stack a bit. In classical times this means axes to deal with axes, catapults, and swordsmen with city raider for cities. Spears beat horses.
But be efficient. Look at your enemy. If he doesn't have horses, he can't make chariots, and he can't make horse archers. Basically, he has nothing that can deal with a basic axe/catapult stack...other than axes. He has no counter units. Better yet, if they ai somehow doesn't have iron or copper, you can bring a bunch of swords and catapults and very little in terms of anything else (maybe a spear or two if he has horse archers).
The concept works in all eras. Look at what the AI can build to counter your primary stack, and have counter units for it. That, or just pick a civ with a very, very powerful UU in its time. Examples include the immortal, praetorian, quecha (god), Panzer, and SEAL off the top of my head. You can pretty much get away with massing these and just giving them promotions to semi-counter the enemy troops...
I understand in BTS they nerfed it heavily by removing its ability to kill. However, it still bombards, and still does collateral damage, and that's what you need it for. Weakening enemy troops so that your non-siege kills them with high odds makes your army A LOT more hammer efficient.
After that, just balance the stack a bit. In classical times this means axes to deal with axes, catapults, and swordsmen with city raider for cities. Spears beat horses.
But be efficient. Look at your enemy. If he doesn't have horses, he can't make chariots, and he can't make horse archers. Basically, he has nothing that can deal with a basic axe/catapult stack...other than axes. He has no counter units. Better yet, if they ai somehow doesn't have iron or copper, you can bring a bunch of swords and catapults and very little in terms of anything else (maybe a spear or two if he has horse archers).
The concept works in all eras. Look at what the AI can build to counter your primary stack, and have counter units for it. That, or just pick a civ with a very, very powerful UU in its time. Examples include the immortal, praetorian, quecha (god), Panzer, and SEAL off the top of my head. You can pretty much get away with massing these and just giving them promotions to semi-counter the enemy troops...
Hammurbabble
Warlord
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- Jan 31, 2008
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- 239
One thing I've noticed about a lot of such advice from players, including Sisiutl's guide, is the downplaying/minimal role given to mounted units and armor. I can only speculate as to why this is. My first guess is that such guides tend to be written by people who like to warmonger in the early game, when Horse Archers really are inferior as city attackers to Swordsmen (same base strength but without the Swordsmen's inherent +10% to attack a city, and no available City Raider promotion).
My firm opinion: In later eras, starting with the Middle Ages when Knights become available, and with only two exceptions later on, mounted units make the best city attackers. (True in the ancient age as well if -- and only if -- you have access to War Elephants.) The rule that was established in those early conquests does not hold up in later eras. Knights beat Longbowmen, Cuirassiers beat Musketmen, Cavalry beat Riflemen; that's attacker-to-defender. AND Knights also beat Macemen, too, which other Macemen can't be relied on to do. The only thing that gives them trouble is a Pikeman, and even there it has a better chance against it than a Maceman does against a Crossbow.
The two exceptions: Infantry beats Cavalry, and Mechanized Infantry beat Tanks. The ancient age rule is briefly restored in these parts of the game, but inverted once again as soon as you have Tanks/Modern Armor, which should be the mainstay of any Industrial Age/Modern to Future age attack force. (Although Mech Infantry isn't to be sneezed at, either, and it moves fast, too.)
Another advantage of mounted units is that you can get replacements to the front a lot more quickly than you can replacement infantry -- or siege units. (Except for Mobile Artillery, of course.) So I find that, although it's true that it costs more hammers to build a Knight than it does to build a Catapult, you will spend less time waiting for the replacements to arrive so you can keep moving if it's a Knight that you're replacing. Conclusion: I tend not to use suicide cats. With a Knight-Cuir-Cavalry main attack force, I don't need to, and as long as I'm reducing city defenses to zero (I do of course use cats for THAT), my losses will be low enough that my number of offensive units will show a net gain through the course of the war.
In vanilla Civ4, I used to not bother with Artillery either, because anything I could do with them I could do much better with Bombers. Waiting for the Artillery to come up to bombard the city slowed down my offense, where with waves of Bombers I could hose down the defenses and then do lots of collateral damage, and if I lost some to Fighters or SAM Infantry that was no big deal, they were cheap. BtS changed that calculation, though, by beefing up air defense considerably, and also adding the Mobile Artillery unit. So artillery is back in the late game combat for me, and Bombers tend to be de-emphasized now while Fighters get boosted a lot in priority.
My firm opinion: In later eras, starting with the Middle Ages when Knights become available, and with only two exceptions later on, mounted units make the best city attackers. (True in the ancient age as well if -- and only if -- you have access to War Elephants.) The rule that was established in those early conquests does not hold up in later eras. Knights beat Longbowmen, Cuirassiers beat Musketmen, Cavalry beat Riflemen; that's attacker-to-defender. AND Knights also beat Macemen, too, which other Macemen can't be relied on to do. The only thing that gives them trouble is a Pikeman, and even there it has a better chance against it than a Maceman does against a Crossbow.
The two exceptions: Infantry beats Cavalry, and Mechanized Infantry beat Tanks. The ancient age rule is briefly restored in these parts of the game, but inverted once again as soon as you have Tanks/Modern Armor, which should be the mainstay of any Industrial Age/Modern to Future age attack force. (Although Mech Infantry isn't to be sneezed at, either, and it moves fast, too.)
Another advantage of mounted units is that you can get replacements to the front a lot more quickly than you can replacement infantry -- or siege units. (Except for Mobile Artillery, of course.) So I find that, although it's true that it costs more hammers to build a Knight than it does to build a Catapult, you will spend less time waiting for the replacements to arrive so you can keep moving if it's a Knight that you're replacing. Conclusion: I tend not to use suicide cats. With a Knight-Cuir-Cavalry main attack force, I don't need to, and as long as I'm reducing city defenses to zero (I do of course use cats for THAT), my losses will be low enough that my number of offensive units will show a net gain through the course of the war.
In vanilla Civ4, I used to not bother with Artillery either, because anything I could do with them I could do much better with Bombers. Waiting for the Artillery to come up to bombard the city slowed down my offense, where with waves of Bombers I could hose down the defenses and then do lots of collateral damage, and if I lost some to Fighters or SAM Infantry that was no big deal, they were cheap. BtS changed that calculation, though, by beefing up air defense considerably, and also adding the Mobile Artillery unit. So artillery is back in the late game combat for me, and Bombers tend to be de-emphasized now while Fighters get boosted a lot in priority.
