How to deal with much more advanced AI

[BrianSpiller]

I've started at the bottom and worked my way up, having beaten the game on settler through prince without any trouble, so I've started a game on king difficulty. I'm liking the game much more as it gets more difficult, definitely a lot more aggression in this game, specifically from Russia and Rome.

It's a standard earth map. I've started in eastern Asia.

I didn't get off to the best start, being attacked from two sides, but things have calmed down a bit now. On points I am leading the Civs near to where I started, but it's pretty close. I've just got to rifling and the nearby Civs are around the same, maybe a little behind. Then, out of nowhere Hiawatha turns up in a destroyer. He has double my score (if not more) and is obviously way out in front in science.

So what do you guys reckon I can do to beat him? I've attached my save game so you can see more detail.

 

[quartal]

I've started at the bottom and worked my way up, having beaten the game on settler through prince without any trouble, so I've started a game on king difficulty. I'm liking the game much more as it gets more difficult, definitely a lot more aggression in this game, specifically from Russia and Rome.

It's a standard earth map. I've started in eastern Asia.

I didn't get off to the best start, being attacked from two sides, but things have calmed down a bit now. On points I am leading the Civs near to where I started, but it's pretty close. I've just got to rifling and the nearby Civs are around the same, maybe a little behind. Then, out of nowhere Hiawatha turns up in a destroyer. He has double my score (if not more) and is obviously way out in front in science.

So what do you guys reckon I can do to beat him? I've attached my save game so you can see more detail.

I've had this same problem on two longer games while trying to get a culture win. On first game I barely got to artillyery and rome was already amassing tanks and some kind of futuristic machine gun units.

On my current game I'm trying to be a bit more active on scouting out the different civilizations. I destroyed Catherine, but Montezuma is now leading me by a couple hundred points. He's got artilleries and riflemans while I've trebuchets and longswords..

I declared a war on him so as he would just sink his guys on my trebuchet defenses but now he got around some of my guys and is probably going to get half of my russian puppets.

 

[lissenber]

Forget about Hiawatha and gobble up Catherine. She doesn`t seem to have much units and hates you anyways. Also you seem to have plenty of units, so many even that your unit maintenance is off the roof. I don`t think a few casualties would hurt you, if not even improve your economy.

Edit: Oh, and why did you make peace with Augustus? He has no units to defend himself at all.

 

[Rathelon]

Paratroopers, I bet, Quartal.

 

[Nunya]

Be nice to him to start with, he's a pretty agreeable fellow (as long as you aren't warmongering too much). Then find out whether he is on the same landmass (Afroeurasia) or on another continent (Australia or the Americas). If he's in on another continent you don't have to worry about him from a military point of view because the AI can't deal with naval invasions. Elizabeth maybe could pull of something, but the rest of them couldn't cross the ocean to save their life.

You might have to worry about him building a spaceship though because that's his favourite victory type. He's also pretty fond of culture, but it clashes with his expansionistic tendencies so he's not that much of a threat for a culture victory.

What kind of victory were you hoping to achieve?

 

[lissenber]

)Then find out whether he is on the same landmass (Afroeurasia) or on another continent (Australia or the Americas)

I did some scouting and he is in

Spoiler :

North America

.

Probably had no rival civilizations spawned near him so he has been able to freely expand and build economy without wars from turn 1.

 

[BrianSpiller]

Forget about Hiawatha and gobble up Catherine. She doesn`t seem to have much units and hates you anyways. Also you seem to have plenty of units, so many even that your unit maintenance is off the roof. I don`t think a few casualties would hurt you, if not even improve your economy.

Edit: Oh, and why did you make peace with Augustus? He has no units to defend himself at all.

I decided to try this out. It was going well, but it has allowed Augustus to amass quite a number of units and he's taken me by surprise somewhat. Updated save attached.

I think you are right in making peace may not have been the best idea.

What kind of victory were you hoping to achieve?

I usually go for domination, but I prefer to make my move later on in the game. I think perhaps I should have taken the initiative a bit earlier on in this one.

 

[Nunya]

Domination should be easy enough because after you've eliminated everybody else all you need to do is a surgical strike against his capital, which is likely going to be poorly defended.

 

[lissenber]

I see all is good with Catherine now. Not sure if you can stop Hiawatha from winning with Time (or Space) Victory.

There`s nothing much else to do than wage war on Augustus untill you atleast take his capital and a few more cities. After that i would just concentrate on taking everyone else`s capital before the game ends. Simultaneously, if possible.

If anyone has some other advice then you should listen to them. I myself am not really sure about what to do.

 

[BrianSpiller]

A quick update in case you are all interested. I've taken the Roman, Siamese and Arabian capitals. I have also brought Catherine out of, and then back into, the game and liberated Darius. I'm also allied with a city state now (I forget the name).

In the meantime, Hiawatha has declared war and shown very little skill at getting his tanks onto the shore (so no real threat there). I'm just left with his capital and Wu Zetian to take.

HOWEVER, Hiawatha has built the UN. With bringing back Catherine and Darius (plus 1 city state) I have 4 votes to his 3 at the moment. So - do I go for the "diplomatic" win? I'm not sure! If I can crank out enough gold and invest my culture into Patronage it sounds do-able (and easier than taking on Hiawatha).

What do you all reckon?

 

[BrianSpiller]

Yes - turns out a diplomatic victory was the easiest way. Apparently taking over the entire of Asia then buying your votes is the way to go.

To do it I had to sell off my army, use my great general to start a golden age, set all of my cities to gold production and then grind down the clock to the next UN vote. Only slight hiccup was when Catherine declared war (despite giving her gifts to keep her sweet) and Hanoi conquered her losing me a vote. It was a bit nailbiting when Oslo and Helsinki were promptly attacked by Hiawatha, but it all worked out.

Not the most satisfying end. I might go back and try for the domination again.

I definitely prefer playing on king to the lower difficulties. There was much more action and the AI put up a better fight. I lost and retook a few cities along the way, which has never happened to me before.

Lessons for next time? I had too many units (especially workers). I noticed that particularly when I tried to sell them all. I should have been more aggressive early on. I think I lost a lot of ground squabbling at the start when I should have just rolled over Catherine and Augustus.

Hiawatha should have won though, shame he can't handle crossing the ocean!

EDIT: Spelling mistake

 

[yanner39]

Then find out whether he is on the same landmass (Afroeurasia) or on another continent (Australia or the Americas). If he's in on another continent you don't have to worry about him from a military point of view because the AI can't deal with naval invasions.

Hiawatha has declared war and shown very little skill at getting his tanks onto the shore (so no real threat there)

This question has nothing to do with the thread but what does this mean? In Civ4 the AI was bad at amphibious assaults but I don't understand why they are bad? Is it because they declare war but don't send any troops? Is it because they send them one at a time and get outnumbered when they reach enemy shores?

Can someone offer a couple of examples.

 

[Nunya]

The AI never sends any ground troops across the ocean. It's a bug in either the AI or the pathfinding or both and it's the reason why many people only ever play Pangea and other single landmass maps.

 

[BrianSpiller]

In the final save I attached you can see a small amount of Hiawatha's territory and it is literally swarming with modern era units. Every other Civ (including me) is still using riflemen and cannons. He could easily wipe out any of us. He is at war with me now, but nothing is happening. Two battleships and a single tank have shown up. I sank the tank in the water and the two ships are just firing upon Rostov with no real aim. Where are all the other units? Just sitting at home!

 

[Sainhann]

The AI never sends any ground troops across the ocean. It's a bug in either the AI or the pathfinding or both and it's the reason why many people only ever play Pangea and other single landmass maps.

Well maybe it is the deep Ocean water that is causing the problems.

Because in my current game Napoleon did send troops across water and took Boston from George.

They both started on different pieces of land were I got struck on the piece of land with Rome, Siam & the Ottomans.

 

[Rathelon]

They both started on different pieces of land were I got struck on the piece of land with Rome, Siam & the Ottomans.

That seems to be the trend for me on Continents or Small Continents, even with start bias diabled, I always seem to end up on the crowded continent.

 

[Nunya]

Well maybe it is the deep Ocean water that is causing the problems.

I did say it doesn't send them over the ocean, didn't I?

Yeah, I think you are right about that. The AI knows how to use shallow water, but oceans are a problem for it.

 

[Lyoncet]

I did say it doesn't send them over the ocean, didn't I?

Yeah, I think you are right about that. The AI knows how to use shallow water, but oceans are a problem for it.

You know, come to think of it, the only game I ever saw the AI conduct an intercontinental invasion, it was just across two tiles of coast. The only time I've seen an AI embark across ocean tiles it was just a settler with no military support save ships.

That was a nice catch Sainhann. I wonder if there's perhaps just a glitch in the coding that keeps them from sending military units over ocean tiles.

 

[neilkaz]

I did say it doesn't send them over the ocean, didn't I?

Yeah, I think you are right about that. The AI knows how to use shallow water, but oceans are a problem for it.

I hope this is patched quickly and this is the reason I no longer play continents maps.

I do realize that there may be some significant coding involved. If my old memory is right (haven't play Civ2 since pre millennium) in Civ 2 the AI could invade across oceans?!?

Could the AI in Civ4 launch invasions across oceans?

.. neilkaz ..

 

[Dess]

The AI never sends any ground troops across the ocean. It's a bug in either the AI or the pathfinding or both and it's the reason why many people only ever play Pangea and other single landmass maps.

That's mostly what you see but not entirely true. I watched an AI Washington swarm an AI Hiawatha with over 30 units across 3 waves. It didn't work because the AI is terrible at naval combat, but it happened. This was on Prince difficulty.

Now I have also watched Hiawatha surrender multiple cities to me before I ever landed a solider, nor did I have any to land, with just naval bombardment. I think some AIs are better at naval warfare than others, but all are terrible.