1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

How to Fix BE (Why AC is a classic game and BE is not)

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by dwcole78, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Galgus

    Galgus Chieftain

    Aug 22, 2012
    @GAGA Extrem

    You make a good point that you don't have to commit atrocities, but the caricature-extremes of the leaders and how central transcendence is to the story both make it a dark story in my opinion.

    It seems pretty set in stone that either people get willingly sacrificed for transcendence, or the planet becomes increasingly dangerous and uninhabitable.

    Wars happen in both games, I'm not sure why you are singling out BE for that.

    As for old mistakes, that really depends on affinity, but I don't see how civilization existing on the planet with improvements is a detriment.

    From a Purity perspective, they have the ability and desire to turn the world into a second, healthy New Earth. To that extent they care about that environment, they just want to destroy the existing one to make room for it.

    From a Supremacy perspective, who cares about the environment? Everyone can live forever in a perfect virtual world, guiding machines to do all they need on the physical world.

    You seem to have something like a Harmony perspective, adapting to the world and preserving it as a precious second chance.

    In my opinion, that conflict of incompatible competing visions of the future that could be interpreted as dark or Utopian is far more interesting than whether or not overt atrocities are committed.

    I find the philosophy behind BE to be much deeper and more interesting to think through than SMAC because each affinity could be a hero or villain based on one's interpretation and views, and because I like the questions raised by transhumanist technology and terraforming.

    The biggest flaw with BE, in my opinion, is that its themes and background aren't communicated well through the gameplay.

    The leaders are interesting, but most everything about them is buried in the civilopedia or in their old introduction scenes online and completely out of game.

    Affinities don't really make much difference in how the game plays mechanically where they should be radically altering strategies.

    I think a mechanical overhaul on affinities and better quests could solve a lot of the problems, and making the Aliens an actual threat and something to push back for expansion and exploration would also be a big bonus.
    DefiantMars likes this.
  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Chieftain

    Dec 4, 2006
    TBH I find the game themes to be OK, and that the leader messages give enough character to the leaders. I also play with my personal modified version of the Social Engineering mod, which gives leaders policies they like or dislike, and with a mod where I strengthened the aliens, which also might play a role here.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  3. legalizefreedom

    legalizefreedom Inefficiency Expert

    Jan 26, 2013
    I am initially impressed with the quest system in Endless Space 2. I immediately thought of BE and how it could be improved with similar storylines and quest system. They've also given each race (civ) a different main storyline quest. It's already a pretty impressive game on release with a big patch in testing now. BE would have been awesome with this kind of narrative. Hoping for this in BE 2.
  4. jokii

    jokii Chieftain

    Jan 8, 2014
    Recycling Tanks
    "It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks, and become one with all the people."

    I still play it. For everyone who hasn't play it, I strongly recommend it. You will be amazed. If you disregard old graphics, it is so much better and more fun game than what we have today...
    If only someone would make the same exact game with newer graphics I would pay 100 $ for it at least.

  5. Mobius1

    Mobius1 Chieftain

    Oct 25, 2016
    Honestly, it's hard to compete with Alpha Centauri. It was the best video game ever made, in my opinion.

    I've been playing it since it first came out, and still play it. I still even try to get people into playing it, which is crazy for such an old game!

    But all the new Civ games, for all their new systems, don't have systems that AC had 20 years ago. Damn, 20 years...I can't believe I've been playing this game for that long!

    For me, the ultimate reason why AC is so good, is that even after 20 years of playing it, I still have room for improvement and discovery. I've been astounded so many times over the years, when I learn something completely new to me, even after playing for years and years.

    For me, the main drawback of all the new Civ games is the 1UPT. Ever since it was introduced, they have never been able to make the AI challenging enough. And I'm sick of building range range range range in every Civ game to win. When are the ever going to fix melee?

    Having the ability to design your own units and teraform left so many possibilities that it never got boring!

    I also hate (though this is preference) the huge random factor in new Civ games. It's the main reason I get so sick of Civ6, because of all the random luck factors (BE is almost as bad, too, with building quests popping randomly, artifacts, etc.). Sure, even AC has random factors that make a difference, but I never felt nearly as impacted by whether or not I sent my initial unit in the lucky bloody direction thus dominoing my way to a much easier win. We always had a "2 mulligans allowed" rule in multiplayer games, and that got past most of the luck factor.

    But honestly, I actually love Rising Tide. I really like the incentive to go tall instead of wide (Granted, you can go tall in Alpha Centauri, but it's not nearly as good as ICS. I usually go tall these days, but it's as a handicap.).

    I also like the espionage system, and the traits/diplomatic agreement system. The aquatic cities are also awesome, as well as the need for specific resource types.

    What I dislike the most about CivBE, is the layout of the tech web. It's hard for me to explain, but I feel like I'm fighting with the tech web when I play. But perhaps a lot of that is due to my playstyle. I think it's because certain must have techs, put you down a tech path that is divergent from where you really want to go. Like getting a Spy Agency and it's respective techs make you +Supremacy, when you want to go Purity. Or a lot of techs I want are +Harmony, which I don't care for.

    Because of this, I spend most of my game going for techs purely for the affinity XP and not for the other benefits they unlock.

    And is it just me, or are the Purity upgrades by far the best? I'll take a Supremacy or Hybrid upgrade on occasion, but usually I find myself ignoring all Harmony upgrades and most Supremacy upgrades to hold out for the Purity ones (Especially on planes! Nothing like a full Purity fighter with +35 healing every turn!).

    Speaking of air, helecopters in Alpha Centauri are crazy stupidly game breaking OP! Thus they are banned in every game I play. :D
    cinattra likes this.
  6. jozef57

    jozef57 Chieftain

    Jun 18, 2009
    my Be did not work long time like it happend before than there was a solution this time after long time it suddenly worked lol thought lets play, in principle i like this game a lot, i need a lot of tweeking... but the concept is great, but i get anoyed to often. but i get anoyed with civ 6 too lol
  7. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

    Mar 19, 2004
    Frederick, MD
    It would have to have hexes and maybe 1UPT, but I would happily pay what they are asking for Civ6!
    legalizefreedom likes this.
  8. cinattra

    cinattra Chieftain

    Nov 3, 2002
    I think that's a problem with tech trees in general. If you have a certain play style you will tend to make the same exact choices in tech progression. Which can be a hindrance to re-playability. When I play Civ I force myself to play a different Civ to get away from the repetitiveness of that very scenario and even still it is easy to fall into the same tech progressions. With BE even more so you are right and you do it because it's the most effective, efficient way to level up your military.

    There should be some limited randomness to tech trees. There is more than one way to progress in science and not everyone takes the same route to scientific discoveries. For BE which techs that contribute points to affinities could be the randomness, but I think randomness to tech trees and randomness to which techs have affinities would be a step in the right direction to treating tech progression boredom.
  9. Guide-on

    Guide-on Chieftain

    Nov 1, 2009
    The first thing the developers should have done is to heavily flavor the leaders toward an affinity/hybrid affinity. This would give the leaders a true character. It would also make them harder to defeat.
    If you only needed 1 tech tree to win a science victory in civ V, but the AI always researched them all, it would be too easy. In BE you do NOT need to research even a third of the web, but the AI does not seem to understand that. A heavily flavored AI would research his(her) part of the web without wasting time on the rest. How many affinity points you get for a tech could be used to influence the AI to research the techs they need to be near OP.
  10. Lord Shadow

    Lord Shadow General

    Oct 14, 2005
    Buenos Aires
    Another late reply, like visiting a grave. :p

    From my perspective, what killed CivBE was its AI, which couldn't cope with the game's own complicated systems, and also lack of support from Firaxis. They seemed to treat it as an experimental side project more than anything else.

    The story was fine, but as far as mechanics, units, biomes and alien diversity go, it was superior to SMAC. It only failed in being over-ambitious, and forgetting about fully adapting its AI.

    Let's not forget SMAC was essentially just Civ2.5. The leaders were the high point, and it benefitted from being a pioneer in videogames as far as covering certain sci-fi themes was concerned, if stereotypically. Themes that are more absorbed into mainstream sci-fi by now.

    Beyond that, it was rather basic, with barbarians with a smart twist, but barbarians nonetheless. For me, the unit designer was the low point: offering essentially 9 proper unit types as chassis for generic, boring tech upgrades. They looked awful too (soldiers with shopping carts...). I much preferred the traditional Civ approach of having distinct units.

    Comparing SMAC and CivBE is a bit like comparing the revolutionary Ford T and, I don't know, the DMC DeLorean, a much more modern, complicated car which failed to meet much higher standards. I'm not a car expert: just trying to make a point here, heh.
    SupremacyKing2 likes this.
  11. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Warlord

    Oct 25, 2014
    Having revisiting Rising Tide a few months ago, I find the game mechanics to be pretty good. The diplomatic system in Rising Tide with agreements and fear and respect are especially great. And I love the different affinities. Although I do feel like the hybrid affinities were a step back. The 3 primary affinities are very good. My main gripe with BE and Rising Tide are the map graphics. Some biomes are very hard to see what is going on. Some borders tend to be blend a bit into the terrain because of similar color. The new Age of Wonders: Planet Fall is an example of a great looking map where everything is very sharp and easy to see.
    DefiantMars and legalizefreedom like this.
  12. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars Chieftain

    Dec 10, 2014
    Honolulu, HI
    I was always confused as to why they removed the normal diplomacy options altogether instead of laying them into the fear/respect system. It really felt like two steps forward and one step back. Like... you give us a better grasp of how the AI feels about us, but then take away our ability to directly influence them? Again, very confusing.

    Initially, I was very much against the idea of the hybrid affinities I thought they would be too diluted to stand alongside the "core" affinities (and to an extent I was correct) and it would make the former triumvirate unnecessarily messy.

    But after seeing the art for their units, I did a complete 180 on my stance. Now, find it very hard to NOT think about the hybrids. I believe the fact they were not handled as their own independent conclusions for narrative and gameplay is what hurt them the most. Instead of offering six different ways to play the game (layering with the Sponsor options which... also needed massive amounts of help), we got three half-baked force multipliers for military forces and some passive perks. I strongly feel like Affinity should have been an ACTIVE choice, closer to the Civ5 ideologies in terms of how you committed to them, not something that you just passively gain over time.

    I think the hybrids could have offered counterpoints, showing the similarities and differences between each affinity.

    I know I've said this quite a bit between both the CFC forums and Reddit, but I believe that the Civ6 district system and unstacked cities would lend itself very well to BE's affinities. The adjacency requirements make the map more important, which dovetails quite nicely with the planetary interaction aspects of the affinities. I think each affinity having different wants for city planning would help differentiate them a lot.
  13. beetle

    beetle Chieftain

    Mar 19, 2004
    Frederick, MD
    I agree on all points but the story. SMAC had pieces of the story dropped throughout the game, even in the Civlopedia. Again, I find my pining for a true reboot, to see what new players say about the plot.
    I feel like SMAC was Civ3.5. Sure, Civ3 was prettier than SMAC, but SMAC had more and better game mechanics. Kind of remarkable really!
    Interesting. I really liked the unit workshop, and I am sad that the mechanic never showed in the Civ line. Among other uses, I liked having the option for purely defensive units. But I was also building grav formers and drop spies! I think I read that it was too complicated for the average players. For sure, the game should have done a better job with clearing out obsolete designs. OTOH your point about soldiers with shopping carts is not unfair!

    That would have been nice! BE just doesn't have enough to temp to play it more.
    Darsnan likes this.

Share This Page