How to fix Civ5 Research and Trade system

[chazzycat]

what about having a limited lifespan for great people? Say they just die after 10 turns. That would solve the scientist problem.

 

[Rinnero]

Tommy, I thought you dont care about changes much and that any rules will do as long as you win.

You explained current state of things pretty accurately. That is really how game is played now.

Changes are in right direction, but there were so many threads about this problems that I think we should go further. I'd rather not only nerf GS, but also buff other GPs.

That is how: http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?113991-Total-redevelopment-of-Great-People

I have tons of detailed calculations and analysis on these changes. Freely ask anything (but if you read the link, its better).

Changes about GPs are that they all have 4 abilities:

GS: (for example)

1) era-dependant instant science:
--A-/--C-/--M-/--R-/--I--/--M--/--F--
100/300/600/1000/1500/2100/2800
And 10 turn delay after each use (just like with culture bombs)

2) +3% of difference between your total science and total science of scientifically best player is added per turn during 10 turns (total science is sum of all researched techs' cost)

3) adds building that gives +50% science in city (can be used twice per city, second after scientific theory)

4) settling. Early means before scientific theory. Mid - after. Late - after plastics.
Early / mid / end (in brackets with freedom finisher)
- 6 - 9 (15) - 12 (18)



As to trade. Your solution eliminates "sell-war-sell" or "sell-pillage-sell" problems, but...
Resource selling turns game into a trading tycoon. Its extremely cheap way to get huge amounts of money. Selling 1 luxury gives you 8 (!) GPT. EIGHT! Thats almost 3 times more than by working an improved resource. Who on earth pay that much for 4 happiness? Of course only AI. Have you ever bought resources? Maybe late game if you have 1000+g, warmonge, and do not have copies of res... (lol, thats impossible). Only if Im at -10unhap I can consider doing this, but AI buys them even if has 20-40+happiness. -> EXPLOIT.

And this can have simple solution: cost AI will pay for lux depends on its hap.
If its 10+ they will buy it only for 2gpt,
if 0-10 for 4gpt
if -9-0 for 6gpt
if -10or more for 10gpt.

Something like that. And RAs can be easily nerfed as well by increasing cost and its scaling. 250-400g in classical era for example, 1000-1500g in modern. I dont like them at all and want them be eliminated at all, as they encourage ganging. (3 allied civs receive 2 free techs each, but 2 only 1). But with such costs it'll be just expensive way to improve a little in science.


These 3 changes make current playstyle (that you described) impossible. (but I also really want to buff other GPs as well)

 

[tommynt]

Rinero u got some good point here.

I just dont think that its helpful to discuss specific figures as long as there isnt a new concept from Firaxis in sight.

U talk about a nerf from GS and a buff to other GP.
In fact would that be the outcome of my fix.

The money from a great merchant would be more useful if gold in general isnt as easy to gather as it is now. Srttling it for a 8g/t thing f.e. d let u finance maybe 2 more RAs which might give u same/better outcome as a academy - now it SHOULD BE ABOUT SAME. So that its a real choise which gp to get not a "nobrainer".
Artists still got their place for cult games and SOMETIMES warfare - i think thats ok.

Also taking away the starting costs and ending benefit and instead adding a steady flow of gold and science is a important part of my concept.
All this planing when RA end and when and how to fianace new ones isust NOT FUN.
So why keep it?

 

[Lokos451]

Could you not achieve the fix on GS's simply by putting a timer on how often you could pop them? If you could only pop one every five turns, it would severely limit the ability to mass bulb, but not affect their use for being settled/Golden Aged. A slight buff to settlement bonuses might help with this as well, to make it viable to do so from medieval on...esp for the GM's.

As for RA's, yeah, they're pretty broken. MOO had a better kind of formula. Not sure if a better fix is introducing a scaling penalty (IE, you get % of median relative to the science output of who you sign with, or some such thing), or basically nerfing the amount of gold you get from trades is better. The second option would be easier, almost definitely, but the way they are set now it'd still be very very difficult for RA's still not to be incredibly efficient.

 

[killmeplease]

i have an another idea for RAs:
when a player has a RA, he gets +50% beakers bonus while researching techs known to his partner.
Obviously those should be indicated in the diplomacy screen and on the tech tree (by specific colour).

 

[Camikaze]

i have an another idea for RAs:
when a player has a RA, he gets +50% beakers bonus while researching techs known to his partner.
Obviously those should be indicated in the diplomacy screen and on the tech tree (by specific colour).

This is quite a solid idea, but it may be unbalanced? That is, stronger civs will get more out of a percentage bonus (I guess this is kinda the same at the moment; more advanced civs get more out of RAs). The reverse really should be true, I think.

 

[killmeplease]

why more advanced civ would sign a RA with a backwards civ? a backwards civ would have a couple of cheap techs still not known to an advanced civ, at best. no new techs more likely. the benefit is on a backwards civ's side. so a backwards civ would compensate this with money, resources etc.

 

[Mesix]

To nerf the bulbing and make it more realistic, the option to bulb could be restricted to an immediate option when the GS arrives. There could be a popup (like when a player gets a free Great Person and selects) which could read something like this:

Isaac Newton has been born in London. This brings a scientific revolution to the empire. Would you choose to:

1. Have a scientific break through resulting in a Free Technology.

OR

2. Receive a Great Scientist..

The GS could then be used to create an Academy or start a golden age. Perhaps some third option could be created as well.

 

[gladoscc]

Rinero u got some good point here.

I just dont think that its helpful to discuss specific figures as long as there isnt a new concept from Firaxis in sight.

U talk about a nerf from GS and a buff to other GP.
In fact would that be the outcome of my fix.

The money from a great merchant would be more useful if gold in general isnt as easy to gather as it is now. Srttling it for a 8g/t thing f.e. d let u finance maybe 2 more RAs which might give u same/better outcome as a academy - now it SHOULD BE ABOUT SAME. So that its a real choise which gp to get not a "nobrainer".
Artists still got their place for cult games and SOMETIMES warfare - i think thats ok.

Also taking away the starting costs and ending benefit and instead adding a steady flow of gold and science is a important part of my concept.
All this planing when RA end and when and how to fianace new ones isust NOT FUN.
So why keep it?

I just want to say, it would be easier for us to read if you stopped using abbreviations like 'u'. Something with generally proper spelling makes it feel as if you have put more effort in it. That's all, have a nice day.

 

[Nefliqus]

I like an idea to restrict number of blub per turn like it is done with cultural bomb. e.g. one tech blub per 10 turns.

 

[DarkSatyr]

Agree something needs to change. RAs should take a page out of MOO2's book - a percentage booster to BPT that benefits the less advanced civ more.

As for scientists, the problem is actually that the late techs cost escalate too hard. Scale that back a little bit and you should see less scientist stockpiling.

Also making Artists & Merchants relatively stronger would help a LOT.

I agree with the first point wholeheartedly, i just don't know how to do it.
Here is what I do have an idea for.

I would propose that a GS sac would create a "Renaissance," much like a Golden Age, where every tile that provides a least once beaker provides +1 beaker, and all cities which have a university or public school have their science output increased by a factor, for instance +33%. This would synergize with Free Thought and the base factor of increase could be increased with PT or Rat opening.
RA's would be a way to improve specialists and steal a bit of stuff out of freedom. During an RA/Renaissance, Scientists and Engineers would cost -1 food and produce +2 extra science per RA, capping at 6, in the civilizations 4 largest cities. This makes to more sense to me because Research is the work of REAL specialists.
Academies would be the things to provide Free Techs. The first academy instantly provides a free technology, the next academy requires X many turns of being worked to produce a free tech.

I do like being able to use GSs as a "phony GE" by opening up a wonder tech before the AI would and then working on the wonder ASAP, so I would like to keep a "bulbing-like" ability in the game.

 

[Syailendra]

What if great scientist are not bulb to instafound tech, but a coresearch (research another tech beside what the empire does now).
The bpt of the coresearch should be calculated from global pop, as in real life a great scientist could have apprentices from any nationality.

 

[King of Prussia]

This just came to me, but what if the solution to the problem is to give them the same restraint as a culture bomb. (obviously not the 1 tile thing). What I mean is you can only culture bomb 1 time every 10 turns. What if you could only bulb 1 time every 10 turns? This would at least slow down the late game rush and saving up GS.

I had the same idea and came to post it until I read your post. ha

This would be something more likey that the developers would do seeing it would save time. Even though this does not fully fix Tech agreements. Me personally would rather have no tech agreements at all or have the ability to turn them off.(like in Civ 4 where you could turn off Trading Technology.)

Edit: Why not allow you and the AI to only be able to sign 1 or 2 tech agreements at a time. This would limit the amount of Science and would be way better than what we have now. and keep the tech boost.

 

[Onan]

So, is it fixed now?