How to Fix Liberty

[Ninakoru]

The liberty free worker is negated compeletely as you probably will steal workers anyway.

How come? A free worker is still a free worker. You get one from CS or nearby Civ, in both tradition and liberty.

 

[Memoryjar]

How much faster can one expand with Liberty vs. Tradition? It seems like the bonus gold that Tradition gets would help it expand by buying settlers.

Liberty is better for fast expanse. Collective rules gives you a FREE settlers and ask less hammers for building other. You can also buy settlers (hello Spain).
Full liberty with Pyramides are my faster expand games. Cheap settlers, many workers, improve tils faster. Then comes happiness issue.

Two levels.
Immortal and Deity, you have a lot of money from AI. You can sell lux and hope to have a caravan from them faster. So, it's never an issue. growth (land elite miss) and unhappiness are.
Below, AI has no cash or just enough to put you in the dirt. On Emperor, it's quite playable, but despite this liberty in early game is a pain.

 

[MadHaxxor]

The liberty free worker is negated compeletely as you probably will steal workers anyway.

yea I agree, but when talking balance we shouldnt consider exploits like this. Firaxiss needs to patch this. A worker is supposed to be an investment, it rakes 12 turns to make one early on and that could have gone to something like a granary, settler, or wonder instead. Stealing the workers completely negates the time investment put into building the worker. I can not bring myself to steal a worker because i know it is an exploit. And dont anyone try telling me stealing one worker doesnt have a major impact in early game, it has a huge impact. You get it very early and can invest hammers into more important things that I mentioned before like wonders or settlers. And dont try justifying it because the "pros" do it because "pros" use anything programmed into the game that allows them to win. If their was a glitch that automatically made you win by being the first to do something stupid, the "pros" would do it.

 

[MadHaxxor]

How come? A free worker is still a free worker. You get one from CS or nearby Civ, in both tradition and liberty.

Look at my other post. One worker in early game is very important, but a second worker doesnt make as much of an impact on the game as the first one does. The 2 workers will likely build more improvements than the city can work at that time. Like I previously stated, stealing workers is an exploit and firaxiss needs to patch it.

 

[Light Cleric]

yea I agree, but when talking balance we shouldnt consider exploits like this. Firaxiss needs to patch this. A worker is supposed to be an investment, it rakes 12 turns to make one early on and that could have gone to something like a granary, settler, or wonder instead. Stealing the workers completely negates the time investment put into building the worker. I can not bring myself to steal a worker because i know it is an exploit. And dont anyone try telling me stealing one worker doesnt have a major impact in early game, it has a huge impact. You get it very early and can invest hammers into more important things that I mentioned before like wonders or settlers. And dont try justifying it because the "pros" do it because "pros" use anything programmed into the game that allows them to win. If their was a glitch that automatically made you win by being the first to do something stupid, the "pros" would do it.

I'm not sure I want to get into this AGAIN, it's been discussed to death before, but there is at least a price to be paid(can never attack a CS again, warmonger penalties, pissing the HELL out of any AI that Pledged to Protect the CS, not being that CS's ally for quite a while) and the impact varies by game; sometimes it's a HUGE boon, sometimes it's "okay". Usually it's worth the trade-off but there is still some trade-off.

I still don't know why it's been around since day 1 and survived every single patch to date if it's such an obvious "exploit".

 

[Ninakoru]

Look at my other post. One worker in early game is very important, but a second worker doesnt make as much of an impact on the game as the first one does. The 2 workers will likely build more improvements than the city can work at that time. Like I previously stated, stealing workers is an exploit and firaxiss needs to patch it.

I don't see it, really. I'm agree that the first is much more important, but another worker plus speeding up improvement upgrades is always good news.

I still don't know why it's been around since day 1 and survived every single patch to date if it's such an obvious "exploit".

Yeah, totally agree. But you could steal it by luck from a settler/worker captured first by barbs, or early DoW a Neighbor and get hist worker(s), stealing from CS is just more reliable.

 

[CraigMak]

I'm not sure I want to get into this AGAIN, it's been discussed to death before, but there is at least a price to be paid(can never attack a CS again, warmonger penalties, pissing the HELL out of any AI that Pledged to Protect the CS, not being that CS's ally for quite a while) and the impact varies by game; sometimes it's a HUGE boon, sometimes it's "okay". Usually it's worth the trade-off but there is still some trade-off.

I still don't know why it's been around since day 1 and survived every single patch to date if it's such an obvious "exploit".

Pangea Plus, Continents Plus and other Plus maps fix this issue. The CS are usually located on islands where you can't get to their workers until a bit later in the game and a significant tech investment into the sea techs.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

The game lets you make war, it lets you capture civilians, and it has other civs create workers and use them. Worker stealing is a result of those things, none of which are going to be called unintended and patched. It's not an exploit.
The fact that a CS is willing to forgive you every time is an exploit. Training units on CS is an exploit.

MadHaxxor, no argument that something is okay because "pros" do it is justified, obviously. That's some sort of naturalistic fallacy. I think people make that argument in an attempt to make another kind of argument but the structure of it escapes them. That argument is this: Everything is fair that is available to every player. What you can find "pros" doing is, as it is told, what any player can do to compete on their level. That's competition: Pushing a game to its extremes to find exciting, skill-testing decisionmaking.

If there were a glitch that made you win by being the first to do a single specific thing, every respectable competitor would do it in competition, and every respectable competitor would clamor for that thing to be banned. The decision tree has become a single choice, and thus there is no competition of choices. Your characterization of pros as the players who seek out victory screens leaves out this duty to defend the competitiveness of the game itself.

Every player can steal workers, and doing so does not produce a victory screen. It's just another step in the hundreds of turns to victory.

 

[CraigMak]

I think we can keep the discussion about who's a pro and who isn't really short.

Anyone who actually makes money of playing Civ5, please put up your hand.

Those of us who have graduated from 3rd grade grammar school can recognize that a single word can have multiple meanings based upon context.

In our discussions here the word "pro" is quite obviously being used to refer to people who are the best in the world at the game.

 

[Vitruvius]

Look at my other post. One worker in early game is very important, but a second worker doesnt make as much of an impact on the game as the first one does. The 2 workers will likely build more improvements than the city can work at that time. Like I previously stated, stealing workers is an exploit and firaxiss needs to patch it.

I don't know about you but my cities always outgrow the tiles I have improved. Even if it didnt there's still roads to build. It also determines whether if you can sell a lux 8 turns earlier. Besides, its liberty, your earlier expansion will require more workers earlier anyway. The 25% increased speed will always be useful throughout the game especially if you are planning on any non peaceful victory.

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[Vitruvius]

I'm not sure I want to get into this AGAIN, it's been discussed to death before, but there is at least a price to be paid(can never attack a CS again, warmonger penalties, pissing the HELL out of any AI that Pledged to Protect the CS, not being that CS's ally for quite a while) and the impact varies by game; sometimes it's a HUGE boon, sometimes it's "okay". Usually it's worth the trade-off but there is still some trade-off.

I still don't know why it's been around since day 1 and survived every single patch to date if it's such an obvious "exploit".

Easy fix. Give cs 3 starting warriors. Cannot make peace within 10 turns of Dow.

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[Kallowe]

Liberty is better for fast expanse. Collective rules gives you a FREE settlers and ask less hammers for building other. You can also buy settlers (hello Spain).

But the settler and worker aren't completely free. They require you to take the policies in Liberty that you could have put into Tradition. Plus you can buy settlers with Tradition as well. Not only that but it gives you more money to do so.

 

[Calouste]

But the settler and worker aren't completely free. They require you to take the policies in Liberty that you could have put into Tradition. Plus you can buy settlers with Tradition as well. Not only that but it gives you more money to do so.

You can only buy settlers with Tradition if you can generate the money to do so. If your starting location is not very good, you need those discounts in Liberty to make something out of your situation. You're not going to earn the money to buy a settler any time soon if the only luxes you have in your capital are a desert Incense and jungle Spices and you don't have any food resources to grow.

But of course people like good starts (although I'm now at the point where I reroll an obvious Petra start, played enough of those), and they will move their Settler looking for a better location, or reroll, and the map algorithm also generates more good than bad starts in my experience. And for a good start, Tradition is a no-brainer.

 

[kaspergm]

... and the map algorithm also generates more good than bad starts in my experience. And for a good start, Tradition is a no-brainer.

Obviously, yes, the map generator has very strict criteria for selecting start positions.

 

[Mutineer]

Many of you talking about stealing worker is an exploit, but is it?
First, it is compensation for warmonder civs. If stealing worker would be impossible then only peace strategy would be valid.
Second, we do play 4X game, don't we?
And it stand for explore, expand, EXPLOIT, exterminate.

 

[megabearsfan]

But the settler and worker aren't completely free. They require you to take the policies in Liberty that you could have put into Tradition. Plus you can buy settlers with Tradition as well. Not only that but it gives you more money to do so.

I think one of the things that the designers were trying to do with Liberty is give reduced versions of the buffs from Tradition, but apply them to all cities. The opener does this by having a similar effect as the Tradition opener (provides free culture so you can grow borders faster), except its reduced and applied to all cities. Perhaps trying to take this same approach for the rest of the policies would result in a more balanced choice?

Opener: +1 Culture per city.
Republic: +1 Production per city and +5% Production towards buildings.
Collective Rule: Speeds training of Settler by 33% in all cities, and +1 food in all cities. Free Settler appears near capital.
Citizenship: +25% improvement build rate. Maintenance paid on workers is halved, and Workers do not count towards the unit cap. A free Worker appears near capital. +25% production towards Work Boats.
Meritocracy: +1 Happiness for each city connected to the capital, and -5% Unhappiness from population in non-occupied cities. +1 Gold in cities that have an improved luxury in their radius.
Representation: Each city you found increases the culture cost of new policies by 33% less than normal. Golden Ages require 25% less happiness.
Finisher: A free Great Person of your choice appears near the capital. All Great person tile improvements generate +1 of the appropriate yield.

The free food from Collective Rule mimics the growth effects of Landed Elite, and allows more cities to become productive quicker without having to pull caravans away from international routes.

The reduced maintenance for workers in Citizenship parallels the function of Oligarchy, so expansionist civs can build more workers without tanking their gpt from maintenance. I also threw in a discount for Work Boats to help out coastal cities which don't necessarily need workers. I'm not sure if this would really be necessary though, and it may even be OP for civs with coastal starts.

Granting bonus gold for having a luxury in Meritocracy rewards the player for what they should be doing anyway: settling near luxuries. It also somewhat parallels the bonus gold from Monarchy, except it rewards the player for spreading out over more area. I'm assuming that since the current Meritocracy text says "Citizens" instead of Population, that it means that specialists don't count. I could be wrong though. In any case, the unhappiness mod should apply to total population instead of just citizens.

Instead of a one-time Golden Age from Representation at a time when you're not likely to get any value out of it, give a discount towards all future golden ages. This helps to offset the fact that more cities usually means less happiness and fewer golden ages, and having more golden ages will give benefits in all cities later in the game, when you're cities are actually productive enough to benefit from them!

The finisher gives a persistent benefit that will snowball over time.

Alternatively, The free Great Person from the finisher could replace the Golden Age in Represenation, and the finisher could instead grant a 25% discount to Granaries and Workshops in all cities. This would sort of parallel the free Aqueducts in the Tradition finisher, except it helps new cities to grow and become productive much quicker. I didn't propose this above because I fear it may make Liberty OP and reverse the problem of this thread...

 

[Paszczak]

Many of you talking about stealing worker is an exploit, but is it?
First, it is compensation for warmonder civs. If stealing worker would be impossible then only peace strategy would be valid.
Second, we do play 4X game, don't we?
And it stand for explore, expand, EXPLOIT, exterminate.

Stealing a worker from a CS is not an "exploit" per se. There are just some very poor design choices put into City-States in general and they haven't been fixed yet.

1) you can DoW a CS and make peace in the same turn with little consequence other than -60 influence. Some people (me!) would argue that "City-State is just a minor civ, I should be able to push it around if I want to!" Which leades us to...

2) if you conquer said minor civ it will count as exterminating a regular civ and will instantly kill your diplomacy with everyone you've met.

If it was up to me I'd simply disable the option to DoW a CS that isn't allied with anyone as a band-aid fix, until we can get a proper diplomacy rework.

 

[Calouste]

Obviously, yes, the map generator has very strict criteria for selecting start positions.

It's not that strict I think. The minimum I think I see on the standards maps is two luxes, one strategic (which might not show up until at least Industrial) and one bonus resource within the three tile range, which isn't much of a start IMO, or at least not a start where you should expect many benefits from going Tradition.

 

[Kallowe]

Collective Rule: Speeds training of Settler by 33% in all cities, and +1 food in all cities. Free Settler appears near capital.
Meritocracy: +1 Happiness for each city connected to the capital, and -5% Unhappiness from population in non-occupied cities. +1 Gold in cities that have an improved luxury in their radius.

+1 food per city seems like quite a lot. That's half the food of a granary or Landed Elite, although they do both have additional effects. I don't know if it would actually be imbalanced though.

While giving +1 gold for cities with an improved luxury in their radii would help with money issues it seems sort of artificial for some reason. What if it was just +1 gold for each city or +1 for each city on a river? As you said people who pick liberty are already going to try to settle luxuries why add a meaningless prerequisite. Plus it seems like buffing luxuries is more the province of Commerce.

 

[megabearsfan]

+1 food per city seems like quite a lot. That's half the food of a granary or Landed Elite, although they do both have additional effects. I don't know if it would actually be imbalanced though.

While giving +1 gold for cities with an improved luxury in their radii would help with money issues it seems sort of artificial for some reason. What if it was just +1 gold for each city or +1 for each city on a river? As you said people who pick liberty are already going to try to settle luxuries why add a meaningless prerequisite. Plus it seems like buffing luxuries is more the province of Commerce.

Meh, either way is fine with me. Since the happiness had a special requirement, I thought the gold should too. Also, it would be a way of kind of training new players in how to properly play an expansive civ/playstyle by reinforcing in their minds that they should be settling near luxuries. Maybe both should just require that the city have a connection to the capital, for simplicity sake: "+1 and +1 Gold in cities that are connected to capital ..."

The +1 food would help to get new cities going, as growth would be very fast early on. It would also allow the city to work production and gold-generating tiles sooner or make specialists, since they won't be forced to work farms in order to keep growing. And like you said, it's still just half of what Landed Elite provides to the capital, and it does not include the other growth bonuses from Tradition (10% growth in capital from Landed Elite, free Aqueducts, and faster growth from finisher - is the faster growth only in first 4 cities same as the Aqueduct?). This is also a similar effect to the respective openers, except applied to food: Tradition gives +3 culture in capital; Liberty gives +1 culture in all cities.