How to fix the classical era

[nokmirt]

Well, the Byzantines really deserve most of the credit for preserving the legacy of Greco-Roman science, arts, and letters. While it's true the Muslims did make their own significant contributions, they were rather selective in their stewardship, often focusing on practical sciences such as medicine.

Yes and who conquered the Byzantines?

 

[nokmirt]

Well, the Byzantines really deserve most of the credit for preserving the legacy of Greco-Roman science, arts, and letters. While it's true the Muslims did make their own significant contributions, they were rather selective in their stewardship, often focusing on practical sciences such as medicine.

My pc is acting up it keeps posting when I do not want it to. Must be because I am downloading some stuff. Something weird is happening. Oh well.

 

[nokmirt]

Well, the Byzantines really deserve most of the credit for preserving the legacy of Greco-Roman science, arts, and letters. While it's true the Muslims did make their own significant contributions, they were rather selective in their stewardship, often focusing on practical sciences such as medicine.

Good point though.

 

[Steamwerks]

Yes and who conquered the Byzantines?

Well, Constantinople didn't fall to a Muslim power until 1453, at which point the Islamic Golden Age had long since passed. In other words, the capture of Constantinople had no influence on Islamic culture during its most prolific period, and it was really the West that ultimately became heir to the classical legacy as large numbers of emigre Greek scholars (with manuscripts in tow) found their way to the Italian city states.

 

[nokmirt]

Well, Constantinople didn't fall to a Muslim power until 1453, at which point the Islamic Golden Age had long since passed. In other words, the capture of Constantinople had no influence on Islamic culture during its most prolific period, and it was really the West that ultimately became heir to the classical legacy as large numbers of emigre Greek scholars (with manuscripts in tow) found their way to the Italian city states.

Yes that is true. But speaking of, my God can I say it without being crucified? The "Dark Ages", involved the time of the Islamic Golden Age during which Mecca, not Constantinople was the center of knowledge and trade in that part of the world. So in other words, the influence of Constantinople did not play a huge part at that time. Plenty of new ideas from all over the world passed through Mecca, from India, China, and Africa, even Spain, where the Reconqista was advancing, on the Iberian Peninsula. So, the Byzantines did help protect classical antiquity, but did not have much bearing over the Islamic Golden Age, because the Turks and other Islamic nations had no access to the Byzantine libraries and churches, in Constantinople, as well as in Byzantine territory. Except for those they conquered over time. Am I not correct?

 

[Louis XXIV]

Yeah, even westerners went to study the knowledge known in Muslim lands. I'd argue Baghdad and Damascus (and Cairo) were more important than Mecca, though, as far as capitals of science and learning.

 

[nokmirt]

Yeah, even westerners went to study the knowledge known in Muslim lands. I'd argue Baghdad and Damascus (and Cairo) were more important than Mecca, though, as far as capitals of science and learning.

Actually, Mecca was the center of trade. Info passes from place to place from all over. All cities had their part to play, but the center is the most important of all. That was undeniably Mecca.

If I was guessing the most important cultural city of the Ottoman empire before the Fall of Constantinople, Bursa in Anatolia would be my choice. This was a very important center of learning. The students and teachers, of course, were Christians converted to Islam.

Do you know the center of the Minoan Civilization's trade network?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't know if it's possible to know that since we can't read what they wrote. If it isn't on Crete, an argument could be made for Thera. It might be Knossos since, even with mythological inflation, it was still an important city.

 

[nokmirt]

I don't know if it's possible to know that since we can't read what they wrote. If it isn't on Crete, an argument could be made for Thera. It might be Knossos since, even with mythological inflation, it was still an important city.

The island of Thera is the answer many would give. Its the answer they taught me anyway, in school. I love these forums because there is so much one can learn. And I have much to learn.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't think they taught me anything on this issue - certainly not in high school. In college, the class I took on this subject mentioned the Minoans and Thera (Thera mostly for the archaeology, plus the Atlantis theory), but nothing specific on this point. There are Egyptian records of trade with these peoples that might have some information.

Interestingly enough, the Egyptians called them "Kefti," which is thought to just mean "Cretan." This suggests they referred to their people and home as simply being "Crete" (the same as later when they were definitely Greek).

 

[Steamwerks]

Yes that is true. But speaking of, my God can I say it without being crucified? The "Dark Ages", involved the time of the Islamic Golden Age during which Mecca, not Constantinople was the center of knowledge and trade in that part of the world. So in other words, the influence of Constantinople did not play a huge part at that time.

Well, academically maligned or not, the term "Dark Ages" definitely has dramatic merit. Think narrated prologue from a 50's/60's CinemaScope epic! As for the influence of Constantinople, it's hard to overstate in my opinion; certainly when we're talking about western Christendom during this time-frame, there was nothing to rival it. Constantinople was rightly regarded as the "Queen of Cities." If we're examining the opinions of the Islamic world, we must acknowledge that while they now looked to their own cities such as Baghdad, Mecca, Damascus, etc., Constantinople was still greatly admired and recognized as a preeminent center of trade and culture.

Plenty of new ideas from all over the world passed through Mecca, from India, China, and Africa, even Spain, where the Reconqista was advancing, on the Iberian Peninsula. So, the Byzantines did help protect classical antiquity, but did not have much bearing over the Islamic Golden Age, because the Turks and other Islamic nations had no access to the Byzantine libraries and churches, in Constantinople, as well as in Byzantine territory. Except for those they conquered over time. Am I not correct?

What you say here is largely correct, but allow me to clarify a few points. Firstly, the Byzantines didn't so much help to protect classical antiquity as they were the almost singular stewards of that tradition. Features of this tradition which found their way into the Islamic world were transmitted via trade and other interactions with the Byzantines; generally speaking, the Byzantines sought to cultivate cordial relationships with regional Islamic powers such as the Fatimids and at least initially, the Seljuk Turks. Incidentally, this stance often led to friction with the Crusaders, but in any event, the the knowledge of interest to the East was usually practical in nature (medicine for instance). So while the Islamic world contributed to preserving these more practical or scientific features of the greater tradition, they were considerably less interested in the arts and letters of western antiquity. In this case we are indebted to the Byzantines. The Islamic Golden Age is better characterized by its own vitality and innovation, incorporation of technologies from remote corners of the world, and the degree to which classical sciences were expanded upon (ex: algebra), rather than a la carte preservation of specific disciplines.

Yeah, even westerners went to study the knowledge known in Muslim lands. I'd argue Baghdad and Damascus (and Cairo) were more important than Mecca, though, as far as capitals of science and learning.

Definitely Baghdad. It's no coincidence that the Mongol sack pretty much bookends the Islamic Golden Age. The loss of Baghdad, or more specifically the manner by which it was destroyed, proved absolutely catastrophic for science and learning in the Islamic world.

 

[nokmirt]

So while the Islamic world contributed to preserving these more practical or scientific features of the greater tradition, they were considerably less interested in the arts and letters of western antiquity. In this case we are indebted to the Byzantines. The Islamic Golden Age is better characterized by its own vitality and innovation, incorporation of technologies from remote corners of the world, and the degree to which classical sciences were expanded upon (ex: algebra), rather than a la carte preservation of specific disciplines.

Now thats cleared up in my head. Islam= practical applications (medicine, applied science, and math) things that can be used to benefit society on a regular day to day basis.

Byzantines= culture (literature and mythology, philosophy, politics, classical architecture, and astronomy) things used to promote and spread reason, thought, and higher learning.

Very interesting thank you. Thanks for stating the importance of Baghdad as well.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Philosophy might go somewhere in the middle. The Islamic world loved Aristotle (who is more practical philosophy, but still), but there's also the guy who didn't believe causation existed who is somewhat important.

 

[nokmirt]

Philosophy might go somewhere in the middle. The Islamic world loved Aristotle (who is more practical philosophy, but still), but there's also the guy who didn't believe causation existed who is somewhat important.

Yes, and I realized I forgot to add art and sculpture.