How to invade culturally advanced? (+corruption question)

[Akalabeth]

Is it just me, or are invasions a hell of a lot harder than they used to be in Civ2?
After steam rolling over the Germans in the medieval age, I thought I'd continue on to the french and hoped my army across on a slew of Caravels. Within 2 turns, I captured 3 major cities and was beginning to move inland.

Then one of the larger cities rebelled, killing all my garrison, and magically installing their own. They proceeded to keep rebelling, some 3 or 4 more times. I actually reloaded the game the very first time, after one city rebellion killed two armies and about 3-4 more veteran knights/other units.

Is the only option to raze the city to the ground? It doesn't seem to matter what I have. After my force was over several turns repulsed, I've decided to take France in pieces. A fleet of Man O'Wars is bombarding whatever coastal cities to dust, then I'll move in and raze them. Because there doesnt seem to be any other way, whenever I land an invasion force, 6-8 bloody Cavalary attack it the first turn.


Second question is regarding corruption, at the outset of the war, I entered a golden age (guess English like it when their man o'war kicks some butt), but the german half of the continent wasnt doing squat. Berlin, the largest has 18 production. 17 of it is wasted to corruption (all the citizens are now english). So I thought, well, might as well switch to Communism. But after two turns of communism, Berlin and everything nearby is still swamped in corruption. What's the point? Does it take a few turns? And how does anyone ever have any sort of large empire with monarchy. Yes, I know, Forbidden Palace. But in order for the Forbidden palace to be the most beneficial it has to be built far away, and if it's built far away it's built very very slowly. And you can't hurry it for some reason. So what the heck?

 

[againsttheflow]

You can't rush the Forbidden Palace w/ a military great leader if you have conquests, only scientific leaders can do that.

 

[ALA Gator]

First what version are you playing? Civ 3 or Conquests? City flipping is a pisser for sure...

As for corruption it is a pain in the butt too. Depending on whether you play Civ 3 or Conquests you use different strategies to combat it. In Conquests you can use Policemen or Civil Engineers to mitigate to effects in far away cities. If you are going to switch to communism in any version I would build courthouses(and police stations) in all the core cites before the switch.

You also need to download CivAssisst II. You can look at the effect of switching govt's before you actually do it and lots of other cool stuff.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=118540

 

[Padma]

Culture (and flipping) was added in Civ3 to make warmongering/steamrolling more difficult.

When warring, plan to take the other Civ out entirely in relatively few turns, or plan a careful, surgical strike, and get peace. Build your own culture to keep flips to a minimum, and either station very large combat forces in captured cities, or park sufficient forces nearby to retake flipped cities. IIRC, CivAssistII can tell you how many troops you need to station in a given city to prevent flips.

 

[MAS]

You can't rush the Forbidden Palace w/ a military great leader if you have conquests, only scientific leaders can do that.

Yes you can, FP is a small wonder, only great wonders can't be rushed with MGL in conquest.

 

[againsttheflow]

MAS is right on this one, I was in a terrible hurry when I posted, didn't realize how late it was getting so didn't really think it through. Anyway, turns out it's one of the best uses for a mgl. You said you lost two armies--imho one of those should have been used to rush the FP. I almost always use my first leader to rush it even if it won't do me a whole lot of good til i've conquered some more. If you couldn't build it you may have been building it elsewhere at the time do to a different city's governor assigning it.

 

[Akalabeth]

Okay, yeah I'm just playing standard Civ3. Not Conquests or Play the World . . though I think PTW is just multiplayer so doesn't matter anyway. Hmmn, I don't think that I can uh . . . un-army a leader right? It's either rush, or become an army I think right? I did gain a fourth leader at some point in the conquest, though I never had troops to make him an army. I might just go back and reload that save and use him to hurry forbidden palace.

But yeah, like my initial invasion was 8 Caravels and 3 Galleons full of troops. I figured the best way to prevent flipping was to conquer as many cities as possible so that the ones I first took wouldn't be within the culture zone of the others. But with only half my empire, (the far away half) producing troops, my transport fleet was left totally idle after the invasion except for one or two ships.

And damn, I hate friggin Cavalry.

And I'm actually surprised I got a leader. It's like my 5th Game, and it's the first time I got a leader. And then next you know I've got like 4 leaders. Wierd

 

[Tasslehoff]

Play the World adds the Multiplayer feature, but it also adds various features and civs. In the future, you always want to post your version and patch when you post a question.

Anyway, back to your question. You cannot remove a leader from an army. Once he's an army, always an army. It may have been mentioned, but the best way to prevent flips is to burn a city upon capturing, and then replacing with a settler. If you want to invade, it's better to create a base with a settler, rather than capturing and then starting a base.

Just a few notes: you really shouldn't reload games every time something bad happens. It just makes the success less satisfying.

You complain about losing invasion forces to cavalry- this probably means you are only dropping off attackers. Add in a large portion of defenders to your stack, and you'll find those cavalries getting smashed. Alternatively, you can transport an army along- AIs never attack full health armies on open ground.

While it's true the FP is useless right next to the capital, it's also pretty weak extremely far from the capital, because the area still receives a large amount of corruption. Depending on the map size, you want the Forbidden Palace a few "ranks" of cities away from the capital.

You mention that your transport fleet is idle after dropping off the troops. Why not send them back home, so they can bring more reinforcements?

 

[Empiremaker]

In Vanilla, the Forbidden Palace should be built in a productive area because it acts like a second capital for both rank and distance corruption. It can be used for the palace rank exploit and RCP.

Also in vanilla, Communism is a bad idea. It is usually best to stay in Republic.

 

[Akalabeth]

Just a few notes: you really shouldn't reload games every time something bad happens. It just makes the success less satisfying.

You complain about losing invasion forces to cavalry- this probably means you are only dropping off attackers. Add in a large portion of defenders to your stack, and you'll find those cavalries getting smashed. Alternatively, you can transport an army along- AIs never attack full health armies on open ground.

You mention that your transport fleet is idle after dropping off the troops. Why not send them back home, so they can bring more reinforcements?

Yeah, I'm tempted not to reload for exactly that reason. Think I was playing the game like 10 hours straight yesterday, not good. I've had my armies attacked several times. Though my army composition might be a little off. When I first landed my invasion force, I lost an army of Veteran Knights to one enemy Knight, they took off like one hitpoint. I thought screw that and reloaded. My initial force was mostly Knights with Catapults, with an army of Musketers and Catapult support cutting off the one land bridge. Later on I was bringing Rifleman, but they'd just get beat down by Cavalry anyway. Or even if I dropped off a shipload of guys, they'd get attacked by like 5 Cavalry and eventually taken out.
My transport fleet was all home, as sea distance is only 2 turns worth of travel time. But there simply wasn't troops to transport over. Maybe I should've built up a supply of second wave troops before I launched the actual invasion. My Caravels were doing better baiting the French Frigates into attacking so they could sink them
I think I might just start a new game. Too many mistakes in that one And while the large map is nice, it seems almost too large. Not much interaction except with the closest guys.

Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Tasslehoff]

An enemy Knight attacked an army?



Was the army at full health, filled with 3 (or 4) Knights, and not inside a city? If so, it shouldn't be happening.

I understand completely the desire to reload. In my first two games, I did so, all too often. But trust me, it's a LOT more satisfying to win when you know you did it on skill, not cheating by reload.

 

[Akalabeth]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a Knight. Maybe a Cavalry. My army was full health, three Veteran Knights in a stack with about 6 other Knights. The AI was later attacking my Musketeer Army quite regularly (3 Veteran Musk on a hill), though I think he only started after he captured one of my Catapults and started bombarding me. But I think the first instance was simply a case of the AI was going to attack something, and that stack was the easiest. His only other alternative was to run into a city and hide.

But anyway . . . I abandoned that game and restarted as the Persians. Then when the Zulus took all the sweet nearby resources and Luxuries I started attacking him with my pitiful warriors (a first for me). Then after capturing some Iron, I proceeded to conquer all of the Zulu, American and Aztec Cities within reach with my Immortals. One of the first times I'm actually technologically on par . . . though it helps when you make the computer sue for peace and in doing so give up everything they can.

 

[Skibatized]

Is it just me, or are invasions a hell of a lot harder than they used to be in Civ2?
After steam rolling over the Germans in the medieval age, I thought I'd continue on to the french and hoped my army across on a slew of Caravels. Within 2 turns, I captured 3 major cities and was beginning to move inland.

Then one of the larger cities rebelled, killing all my garrison, and magically installing their own. They proceeded to keep rebelling, some 3 or 4 more times. I actually reloaded the game the very first time, after one city rebellion killed two armies and about 3-4 more veteran knights/other units.

Is the only option to raze the city to the ground? It doesn't seem to matter what I have. After my force was over several turns repulsed, I've decided to take France in pieces. A fleet of Man O'Wars is bombarding whatever coastal cities to dust, then I'll move in and raze them. Because there doesnt seem to be any other way, whenever I land an invasion force, 6-8 bloody Cavalary attack it the first turn.


Second question is regarding corruption, at the outset of the war, I entered a golden age (guess English like it when their man o'war kicks some butt), but the german half of the continent wasnt doing squat. Berlin, the largest has 18 production. 17 of it is wasted to corruption (all the citizens are now english). So I thought, well, might as well switch to Communism. But after two turns of communism, Berlin and everything nearby is still swamped in corruption. What's the point? Does it take a few turns? And how does anyone ever have any sort of large empire with monarchy. Yes, I know, Forbidden Palace. But in order for the Forbidden palace to be the most beneficial it has to be built far away, and if it's built far away it's built very very slowly. And you can't hurry it for some reason. So what the heck?

When you conquer a city, garrison it quickly so you are able to produce. Send catapults or sacrafice units to rush a setteler or 2... and starve the people (this is ofcourse if it's a huge cultural city) that's what I do

 

[Akalabeth]

Yeah I suppose that's one way to quell resisters. Starve em and put 'em to work.

 

[TheOverseer714]

If the city of Berlin is fully integrated, build a courthouse there. You could also maximize shields by railing and mining all tiles the city controls, leaving just enough food to prevent starvation. Admittedly, Communism works better in Conquests, which has the Policeman and Civil Engineer specialists that make corrupt cities less useless. It also has the Special Police HQ, which acts as a 2nd FP.

 

[againsttheflow]

While it's true the FP is useless right next to the capital, it's also pretty weak extremely far from the capital, because the area still receives a large amount of corruption. Depending on the map size, you want the Forbidden Palace a few "ranks" of cities away from the capital.

I don't remember vanilla very well but I know in conquests it doesn't matter where your FP is. Was it not this way in vanilla?

 

[TheOverseer714]

No, in vanilla, the FP works as a second core, so you want it well situated, somewhere it can really do some good. If you have Civ Assist 2, you can "scout" what city works best for your FP. About 3 cities from your true capital is a good rule of thumb.

 

[Tasslehoff]

It does matter where you FP is in Conquests- there's two kinds of corruption, and FP only helps one. If the FP is too far away, it reduces some corruption, but the other type makes the cities virtually useless anyway.

 

[againsttheflow]

No kidding. I guess I never noticed since I always build about 4 cities away (line of sight) anyway. You were extremely clear on which kinds of corruption it does/doesn't affect.

@ Overseer: I wasn't reffering to the situation of the FP relevant to other cities but the capital.

 

[PaperBeetle]

An enemy Knight attacked an army?



Was the army at full health, filled with 3 (or 4) Knights, and not inside a city? If so, it shouldn't be happening.

I understand completely the desire to reload. In my first two games, I did so, all too often. But trust me, it's a LOT more satisfying to win when you know you did it on skill, not cheating by reload.

The truism that the AI never attacks a healthy (and relatively contemporary) army has been much discussed recently, to no convincing conclusion in my mind. I'll have to run some tests of my own (though not before I get done with the sid COTM), but personally, ever since events in a Roman XOTM back at the start of my career, I don't dare unload an army as a beach-head. It is my experience that the AI will happily attack an army if it has, as Akalabeth says, absolutely no other target available.
And given that I don't like to fight as inefficiently as the "land a bunch of defenders on a mountain and hope they die bravely" strategy, this makes invading a strong AI with a continent to itself quite a problem.