How to Make Expansion Harder

sir_schwick

Archbishop of Towels
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In all the civs, but especially Civ 3, the only real obstacles to expansion were other civilizations. Barbarians were a simple and infrequent nuisance, and indigenous populations were not to be seen. Not anymore I say! This is a rough outline of a system to make expansion a comprehensive and expensive effort in terms of both culture and military might.

1. All squares that can produce food(including improvements to that terrain), are inhabited by some indigenous population. The maximum 'population' of any square beside settlement squares is one. Whenever this population unit is utilized, ten food must be stored by the square to have a new population unit avaliable. Here is an example of what I mean.
  • Slaves are rounded up from a Hills. The Hill generates 1 food per turn. It will thus take 10 turns for another pop unit to be avaliable to be slaved.
  • Slaves are also rounded from Grain. The Grain generates 4 food per turn with the present irrigation. It will take 3 turns for another pop unit to be avaliable to be slaved.

2. Any squares that are not within your cultural influence will automatically be hostile to your forces. Culture will spread to foreign citeis, so that territory will not be as hostile. Squares inside your cultural borders still have a possibilty of being hostile, but usually require provocation to do so.

3. Hostile squares will often attack your forces if within a two to three square range. The potency of these attacks varies based on technology and shield production of the square. However, in the early era you will probably need a heavy military presence in order to move around outside your cultural borders. Here are modifiers that might affect when and where your troops are attacked.
  • If that square has been the victim of slaving or former pacifciation, they are very hostile to the responsible civ.
  • Troops that are not within the Zone of Control of a fortification, in or outside a city, are considered much riper targets.
  • Fortifications will usually deter weaker attacks.
  • Tiles that have been slaved do not have the pop points to organize resistance until the pop returns.
  • Tiles that are 'pacified' by a unit from a fortification will be impotent for many turns but very hostile for many after that.

4. Slaving is the function of turning indigenous populations into slave workers. These workers can eventually be added to cities, but with special slave rules.
  • Slave happiness is not modified the usual way. Instead each content citizen makes one slave content. Each happy free citizen makes two slaves content. Each military unit make sone slave content.
  • Slave unhappiness is automatic and is overcome by first having enough free citizens and military units to maintain order. Each time a slave is unhappy for a turn, it adds an unhappy modifier of +1 to the slave population. THe only way to remove any of these modifiers is by enfranchising a slave citizen.
  • Slaves do not count toward population count when figuring out how big the grain box is. They also do not count towards overpopulation. HOwever, a city still needs an aqueduct to get above the combined pop of slaves and freemen of 6.
  • Slave revolts occur whenever a city goes into civil disorder. All the slaves that were unhappy become Conscript units of the average quality of the day. If they capture the city in the fight against hte garrison, the rest of the slaves join them. The city is under the banner of the oldest slave's origin. As this slave army moves, any squares that were very hostile towards you contribute units to this army.

5. Reserves come after the Republic and are a way of generaing cheap border gaurds from indigenous populations. Military units can gather and train pop units from squares in the ZOC of a fortification. These new units are Conscript level and attached to the fortress, incurring no upkeep. Once they are moved from the fortification they become a regular part of your military, but can be upgraded to Regular status at a Barracks.

6. Fortifications now play an important role, as cities can build one as well. Fortifications allow you have a base of operations for 'slaveing', 'pacification', 'reserves', and expansion. They provide the defense necessary to survive the constant harrassment of the hostile natives. Also, they can be populated by workers, slave or free.
  • Each fortification requires a different level of garrison based on the technology. More advanced facilities require more units. This garrison insures the base provides its ZOC functions and defense functions. Part of these functions is the ability to make first strike against any enemy units that enter this space from outside it.
  • All units past the garrison can perform operations in the fortifications ZOC. These operations are any that interact with the squares native population.
  • Fortifications can build specific improvements unique to forts. These mostly allow them generate science, gold, shields from squares or train troops or reduce attacks.
  • Based on the level of fort, a certain number of workers can be assigned to the fort. They work squares, but can only gather one product from the square. What they can gather is based on what improvements exist. Trade arrows are converted to either gold or science at 100%.
  • Any of the products of the fort can be exported to a city of your choice once a RR connects them.
 
Bravo, bravo! This is a brilliant suggestion, I like it a LOT. This would also help to prevent the ridiculous expansion of the AI (sending off settlers to any spot it can find, no matter how remote or crappy it is). Besides that, it adds a lot to realism, and I think would make the game far more enjoyable.
 
Well, on the surface it looks like a decent idea, but I still very much favour a 'Minor Nation' system to replace barbarians and goody huts. Given that these 'minor nations' would be able to build cities, and generate units and borders, you would have a MUCH more effective means of limiting early expansion in the game-even more so if you combine it with the idea for terrain ONLY being revealed if an exploring unit returns to a city AND have the system of Operational Ranges AND have certain terrain types which are totally impassable until a certain tech (or tech level) is achieved! Combined, all of these factors have the power to strictly limit early to mid-game expansion of ALL civs-thus making the industrial and Modern Ages that much more exciting!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Nice. ;)
But wat would be the benefit of adding slaves to cities ???
cause if al they cause is unhapynes or revolts who would ad them to cities. :confused:
 
I think the point, Dragonsbain, is that slaves would bring increased wealth and productivity for the city which has them, but at the risk of them revolting and taking the city from you. I would suggest that the chance of such a thing happening would depend on both the number of slaves a city has AND how well or badly you treat them!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I'm with Aussie on this one, that would be a major revision of civ, and make it less civ-like in general. I like the slave revolt concept though. If the minor nation concept is brought in, you should be able to gather a certain number of slaves for your cities through some method or other, perhaps through defeating barbarians and getting a worker like unit that can't work independently, but can join cities as a slave. Also, you could contact the Chieftain of the tribe, and demand some slaves as tribute, and eliminate gold gathering from barbarians as a consequence. (Most really primitive tribes have little wealth like this anyway.) The revolt concept is good, could be a major problem if you are a real slave driver. If the rations concept is refined, as it was in CTP, the base happiness of slaves could be set by how much you feed them. Need more bread slices per tile, have citizens eat more, so you can set number of slices to give to slaves. You could tell if the slaves were unhappy/furious by their faces in the city view, though they would still have to work, and the slave unhappiness penalty would not affect overall city happiness.

You should also have the option to free slaves once you get to a certain tech, with much more chance of revolt once you hit modern times, to reflect general revulsion of slavery by humanity in general. When you free slaves, the gold generated by the city drops way down for several turns, depending on number of slaves, to reflect assimilation and reparations. This would make slave taking have a consequence.
 
I agree completely Ivan and Aussie. The biggest reason I did not include those in the original proposal was that the original post was long enough as it is. The big reason to have slaves is that you can get big cities easily and slaves are easier to control. By making two normal citizens happy, you have a net four content and two happy pop points. You have to make less freemen happy to have happy slaves. Also, many ancient cities were way more slaves than free men. I also agree with the sentiment that as techs progress, unhappiness would increase naturally, forcing you to enfranchise some of the citizens. Minor nations could replace the 'inhabited' squares. That was a suggestion for players that do not like Minor Nations. it also lends itself to a more siginifcant geurilla resistance model.
 
Well, I think that, in your 'Empire Management Screen', you should have a 'Rations' and 'Work Rate' slider for Slaves (and a seperate one for your normal workers). If you increase the work rate, then terrain improvements are done faster, but you run an increased chance of revolt. If you cut rations, then your workforce costs you less food but-you guessed it-increased chance of revolt. Rations for 'workers' (not 'slaves') apply to both worker 'units' and to the general population of your cities.
Aside from Work Rate, you should also be able to adjust 'work hours' for the general population of your cities within your empire management screen.
I know this is sort of off-topic, but I thought it was worth a mention-whilst we were on the subject of slaves!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I especially like the minor nation idea, so you can only play with three or four opponents, but still keep yourself busy before the game starts. And besides, that's what the planet was like in 4000 BC anyway, there really wasn't any central anything, you'd have like one or two little towns per tribe and that's it. Would the slavery and Minor nations concept extend into the later ages?
 
Slavery could always exist, but gets more and more expensive compared to the benefits. Minor nations and square inhabitants always exist. The first can usually defend themselves with strong culture and defensive building. The latter exists to make a realistic and meddlesome resistance model for national and native resistance. Now not having much cultural penetration means your units have to deal with constant attacks and this attrition makes wars hard.
 
Aussie, your idea on the sliders for work rate and food is good, and was used in CTP, but I don't know if civ4 will work like that, the two models are actually quite different. In CTP food was very different, tiles produced food expressed as a number rather than the relatively small number of bread slices you get in civ3. This made it possible to implement the slider system. We need many more bread slices per tile for this to work well, hope we get it, as this will help with balancing city food as well.

I do really like the work rate idea. Again, though, base number of turns to complete tasks will have to be jacked up to allow for this kind of incrementing, where workers are concerned. Also, increasing work rate has to affect the workers, slaves and otherwise some way, they must become unhappy, and the regular workers unhappiness has to affect city happiness, which brings into play the ugly supported units by city issue.

I would like to see more variety in workers, I'm suprised they didn't have a laborer become available with replaceable parts, with a 2 move point ability, I think the one tile move kind of sucks later in the game.

How would you implement slaves in the city? Could they become specialists of a sort? Obviously not tax collectors or policemen, but maybe entertainers, or perhaps laborers that can increase production at a gold cost?
 
Slaves would be like normal citizens, but there happiness is calculatted differently(as I described above). Slaveing operations would be a good way to fill out cities early, especially ones that have a good production potential. Also, they do count as pop for aqueducts and hospitals, but not food box size or overpopulation. Early in the game having mostly slaves is very profitable, but as more slaves become unhappy, it is eventually unprofitable.
 
Well it works out about the same, instead of producing more food they would generate the same efect because they don't cost food. so I ges we are thinking along the same line sir_schwick. :cool:
 
How about this for a no-expansion rule...

Certain units are designated with the "explorer" flag. Any unit without this flag loses a health point every time it moves in such a way as to reveal new territory. That's if they are allowed to explore at all. This will of course require an extra series of scouting units right from the earliest ages.
 
Actually, Rhialto, an idea along these lines has been suggested in another thread. The overall concept worked like this:

1) Units entering 'fogged-out' (i.e black) areas only illuminate those areas as long as they are within the 'visual range' of the unit.

2) In order for a 'fogged area' to be permanently revealed, the revealing unit must first return to either a city or an occupied fortress/colony/outpost terrain improvement.

3) Until the area is permanently exposed, all 'non-exploration' units entering that area have their 'operational range' halved for the puposes of determining performance degredation and possible hp loss.

IMHO, this will make the latter part of the game more exciting, as you would no longer have the situation where the entire world is revealed by the middle of the 'Middle Ages'!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
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