How to nerfe State Property ...

[Galileo44]

I think the answer that people will find is that SP is good for warmongerers and not for builders. If your empire is very large, then SP can lower maintainance costs by up to 10 gpt in some cities.(highest i've had) That is more than a representation-enhanced scientist. (but someone will say that the scientist gets multipliers and they are right, it is a question of the size of the multiplier) Also, mercantilism loses foreign trade. For a builder, where distance maintainance is 3 or 4, it is obvious that mercantilism and (more probably) Free Market are better due to the small effect of SP.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Umm... regardless of ideological or political beliefs, it is hard to argue with how both China and Soviet Russia developed powerful industrial economies within such a short time span, as well as maintained huge empires... Russia went from a backwards feudal society to an industrial super power in less than thirty years. So care to defend your post a little more? I don't think it's as "simple" as you want to believe.

Communist/socialist policies are a good solution in the short term. Yeah, they elevated Russia and China from being agrarian societies into industrial powers. FDR's New Deal helped get the US working out of the depression (the timely Japanese attack help vault us into a booming war time economy as well). Russia would be a prosperous, capitalist society if its leaders weren't so terribly corrupt. As for China, they seem to be slowly moving away from communism because they know it's ultimately the only way they can pull ahead of the US in economic power. I didn't mean to say that communism is completely useless. Sometimes it's good for the government to take control for a short while in order to get a country up to speed with its competitors, but then control of the economy should shift back to private businesses. Speaking for the US, it is truly Yankee ingenuity and entrepreneurialism that has made this country such an economic powerhouse. It's fine for people to seek government help if they need a boost, but bureaucracy and social programs can only take you so far. Self-determination, the will of individuals to improve their lives is what makes us strong. People become weak when they depend on their government for everything. If a heart surgeon makes the same amount as a taxi driver, then why should either of them strive to become better at what they do? Therefore:

Communism= good as a short-term solution to give people a leg-up.

free market= drives the economy forward once it has an established foundation on the will of individuals.

 

[Thedrin]

Courthouses? Are you kidding? It's not no-brain choice building courthouse in every city. When you have 30 cities, SP is known long ago. And I can say, I simply saved the money. I'd rather see library.

And that's the whole trick. Avoiding building courthouses, by the fact that every city has virtual courthouse. And one more courthouse is just a waste of money.

So you acknowledge that you're only rating State Property against other economy civics when managing a huge empire. Since you don't play with smaller empires very often, you are less likely to be aware that the economy civics are well balanced.

Still, if you do think a change is needed, mod your own game so that State Property has a higher civic upkeep cost. That is the most obvious and simplest change to make to an overpowered civic.

And courthouses don't cost money, but they can kill off 4 rebelling units of population (which further reduces costs) and reduce city maintenance costs - even if you run state property).

 

[Napalm102]

Umm, state property does not mean communism. State property is just one of the aspects of communism. The closest you can get to communism in Civ IV is by running Police state, Beurocracy/Nationalism, Emancipation, State Property and Free Religion (its best that fits, paganism doesn't for sure since it represents folk religion rather then something organised and there is no Atheism available as a choice).

And I have to agree that Communism is not an ideal system, but keep in mind that USSR held out against a combined economic might of the entire west for 60 years + a devastating WW2 and no less devastating revolution. With the poulation of only 160 million people + some east block countries (vs 250 million in US + god knows how many in Europe) it was able to maintain military and industrial equality with the west.

 

[Thedrin]

Police state, Beurocracy/Nationalism, Emancipation, State Property and Free Religion

Would theocracy with no state religion not be a better choice?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Pure communism means spamming the place with windmills and workshops. Your commerce will grind to a halt. Much like real life: at its worse, China was about two entire centuries behind the West, and today is still at least half a century behind the West. And then they're still trying to urbanize, ie grow the cottages back. Oh, you can't solve the hapiness problems with starvation either.

The best way to run state property is to cottage spam anyway, but have a few production cities building armies and wonders (or spaceship parts, but in real life we can't build giant spaceships to Alpha Centuri yet, nor have we developed fusion). The US is effectively a "state property" civic, because while it labels itself as a free-market economy, and its people and leaders genuinely works towards making the market more free, in reality a third of the US economy is owned by 1000 coroporations, and large corporations are usually friends of the government, and their kids study in the same prestigous university, eat and hang out with each other, and marry each other. This close tie with government can only be simulated by the "production cities", building skyscrapers, military units and national wonders.

I'd call Singapore or Hong Kong free market. They produce nothing but trade routes.

 

[bonafide11]

I never said it was an ethical system, but it has helped industrialize larger empires, whether or not it exploited other people.

And China did not "abandon" the system of state-owned economy. Their economy is still state-owned, but with some capitalist modifications. It is still hardly a "free market" in the Western sense, as the state maintains ownership of most industries. As far as in Civ terms, although maybe not in the Marxist sense, China's economy would definitely still be considered "State Property."

Yes, the Soviet Union industrialized off the exploitation of its people (not just non-Russians, but Russians as well). But that's no case for nerfing State Property in the game. Did the U.S. and all of Western Europe not industrialize off the exploitation of slaves and colonialism? There would be no industrial revolution without forced labor producing an abundance of raw materials. So why not make the case to nerf "free market" or "mercantalism" because those economies also required the exploitation of forced labor?

And did I ever claim it was "simple?" No, I said it was NOT simple in response to an earlier post who claimed that state property was simply not an efficient economy in any sense. I replied that no, it is that not simple, as there have been cases of state property economies industrializing at alarming rates, whether or not off the exploitation of labor, which has historically been required for any industrialization.

I never said "all socialist economies have been an unquestionable success," so I feel no need to even address your point referring to Cuba and North Korea. If anything, in Civ terms, your examples of Cuba and North Korea again reinforces the point that state property is only useful if you have a large empire. But there are also a thousand cases of devastated free market economies, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove anyway.

Forget the ideology and talk about historical facts, I don't know much about the USSR, in China the reality is the Great Leap Movement almost destroyed their economy. Millions of people practically starved to death. In early 80's the majority of people were near the poverty line. There was a famous popular saying in China back then: "Work, get $36; don't work, get $36", which means those employees in those state-owned companies would receive only $36 RMB per month regardless of whether they are lazy or hardworking. State-owned economy has been shown to be highly inefficient, or else please explain why China gets rich so fast when Deng XiaoPeng abandoned the system for "revised socialism" (= capitalistic economy).

For USSR, there are also a lot of exploitation of the non-Russian people involved.

And where is the industrial powerhouse in Cuba and N. Korea?

The so-called industrial powerhouse phenomenon is indeed not as "simple" as you claimed. In game's terms, the communism option in Civ 3 (or 2?) is actually more realistic. The enhancement in hammers is largely derived from diminished commerce, cheap labor and subsequent reduction of happiness.

 

[anglosaxon]

Forget the ideology and talk about historical facts, I don't know much about the USSR, in China the reality is the Great Leap Movement almost destroyed their economy. Millions of people practically starved to death. In early 80's the majority of people were near the poverty line. There was a famous popular saying in China back then: "Work, get $36; don't work, get $36", which means those employees in those state-owned companies would receive only $36 RMB per month regardless of whether they are lazy or hardworking. State-owned economy has been shown to be highly inefficient, or else please explain why China gets rich so fast when Deng XiaoPeng abandoned the system for "revised socialism" (= capitalistic economy).

For USSR, there are also a lot of exploitation of the non-Russian people involved.

And where is the industrial powerhouse in Cuba and N. Korea?

The so-called industrial powerhouse phenomenon is indeed not as "simple" as you claimed. In game's terms, the communism option in Civ 3 (or 2?) is actually more realistic. The enhancement in hammers is largely derived from diminished commerce, cheap labor and subsequent reduction of happiness.

I agree. Communism/State Property is pretty much one of the main causes of all the misery in the 20th century. Mao, Stalin, Pol-Pot killed millions of their own people. And lets not forget that Hitler was also a Socialist (National Socialist German Workers Party = Nazi). The Russian and Chinese economic improvements, if you can call them that, were brought about by enslaving the people rather than any inherent economic efficiency. And the misallocation of resources was mind-boggling i.e. half the coal produced in a Siberian coal mine had to be used just to heat the miners' homes, rather than be sold at an economic profit.

 

[bonafide11]

I agree. Communism/State Property is pretty much one of the main causes of all the misery in the 20th century. Mao, Stalin, Pol-Pot killed millions of their own people. And lets not forget that Hitler was also a Socialist (National Socialist German Workers Party = Nazi). The Russian and Chinese economic improvements, if you can call them that, were brought about by enslaving the people rather than any inherent economic efficiency. And the misallocation of resources was mind-boggling i.e. half the coal produced in a Siberian coal mine had to be used just to heat the miners' homes, rather than be sold at an economic profit.

Okay, a few things on this... Hitler was NOT a socialist in the proper context of the term. There is a major difference between a National Socialist and a Socialist. Hitler gained power by promising to fight socialism.

Second, yes, Russia and China achieved economic improvements off enslaving and exploiting the people. Does this also not apply to the United States and all of Western Europe? Or is it somehow a coincidence that the North industrialized while the South used slavery? As I said before, industrialization required an abundance of raw materials. For a factory to mass produce clothing, it necessitated an excess of cotton, and where was the cotton coming from? The cotton was produced by slave labor!

The same goes for England and France. England's industrialism came at the expense of colonial exploitation in India, Egypt, etc. France's industrialism exploited Algeria, Morocco, etc.

Why are we so willing to overlook colonial exploitation? There is a connection between colonialism/imperialism and the development of capitalism!

Not to mention the fact that the working classes in England and the United States during industrialization were also underpaid, overworked, and exploited. Capitalism is founded on exploited labor, whether it be wage slavery or slave labor!
No one is trying to argue that China and the Soviet Union did not exploit people in order to industrialize, nor am I trying to defend it. I am merely pointing out that capitalist nations have not industrialized without their fair share of exploitation.

Checkmate

 

[Napalm102]

Would theocracy with no state religion not be a better choice?

Haven't thought about that. Iguess it might work, but that +2 exp modifier is suppowed to represent a religious fanatism. So then it is possible to assume that by having no-state religion you gain +2 exp from ideological fanatism..."death too all the capitalists!!" sort of thing

Well thats as close as you going to get to communism in Civ 4.

 

[axident]

Why do you want to nerf State property?

In allmost all cases mercantenilism is more beneficial.

I used to think that way too, with a Representation/Statue of Liberty/Merc combo and plenty of specialists. But I changed my mind after considering that each +1 food is like adding +1/2 specialist, and also makes some less-viable cities much more viable (e.g., cities that have tons of hills but not much arable land). Furthermore, the bigger your empire, the more you appreciate the lack of distance penalties to upkeep. You also get richer trade route yields with non-merc civics, though you also enrich your trading partners. Lastly, and this is a big one to me, I love Riverside Ironworks setups (mass watermills, some farms, and maybe some workshops) and use it for a lot of other cities as well. The production of SP-enabled mill-heavy cities is difficult to beat, and you even get extra commerce from the mills with Electricity.