How to use Godess of Springtime?

[Stalker0]

I think that’s why you should move all the faith onto the plantation and give market some other yield(s). As ninal says, with a plantation-heavy starting location, if you want to use the plantation pantheon then you have to rush Trade/Markets right now, or you’ll never found. If you have a great plantation start then you want to rush Calendar, but the plantation pantheon pulls you to another tech or you will never found.

the current springtime pantheon puts you into a perpetual feeling of sour grapes.

This may be more viable. You could do something like +2 faith, +1 food on plantations….and then like +3 gold on markets or something. I think +2 faith on plantations would be needed, unless you gave it some base faith at base.

 

[pineappledan]

IMO 21 on plantations and 22 on markets

then, something just needs to be done about the quarries pantheon

 

[Stalker0]

IMO 21 on plantations and 22 on markets

then, something just needs to be done about the quarries pantheon

I think the food on markets is overkill, as we are changing the look of the pantheon by subbing out gold for food. I think your primary point, swapping the focus of the pantheon back to plantations, is the right call....but I don't think we need to fundamentally change the pantheon. Its a gold heavy pantheon with a sprinkle of food, let it remain that way.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I still prefer the Faith on Markets because plantations aren't the most consistent. What if you have plantation luxuries on Forests? If you have Incense or Tobacco, then you'll be even more powerful in the religious game. I personally don't mind seeing 2 Gold and 1 Food on plantations and 1 Culture and 4 Faith on Markets. The Culture is to make up for the delay on Monument since you are focusing so heavily on Faith.

 

[Stalker0]

I still prefer the Faith on Markets because plantations aren't the most consistent. What if you have plantation luxuries on Forests?

The trick with pantheons is that its ok if they are niche....to a point. I think the problem with Springtime right now is that even when you beeline its niche its not that great.

So in your example, you wouldn't use springtime. That's ok, there are many other plantations to choose from. You choose springtime with plantation heavy starts, where an early push on markets is appealing to you (Arabia, Ottomans, Morocco, etc).

 

[amateurgamer88]

The trick with pantheons is that its ok if they are niche....to a point. I think the problem with Springtime right now is that even when you beeline its niche its not that great.

So in your example, you wouldn't use springtime. That's ok, there are many other plantations to choose from. You choose springtime with plantation heavy starts, where an early push on markets is appealing to you (Arabia, Ottomans, Morocco, etc).

The issue is that, to secure a religion, Goddess of Beauty is more optimal for those cases. You go for Stonehenge first and then Petra/Temple of Artemis depending on your terrain and needs. If I played Ottomans/Morocco with desert nearby, I'd go Goddess of Beauty and focus on Petra as it has more benefits with the free Caravan than improving Plantations with one/two Worker(s) at this stage of the game. The changes you suggested still make Goddess of Beauty a safer choice as a Pantheon.

 

[Stalker0]

The issue is that, to secure a religion, Goddess of Beauty is more optimal for those cases. You go for Stonehenge first and then Petra/Temple of Artemis depending on your terrain and needs. If I played Ottomans/Morocco with desert nearby, I'd go Goddess of Beauty and focus on Petra as it has more benefits with the free Caravan than improving Plantations with one/two Worker(s) at this stage of the game. The changes you suggested still make Goddess of Beauty a safer choice as a Pantheon.

Personally, Beauty may be a bit too strong now with the pyramid change....there are several paths to make it very successful. But that aside, I think your argument solidifies PADs idea even more. The "market first" pantheon is done better by other options. So switch springtime into a "plantation first....market later" focused pantheon that is still gold heavy overall.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Why do we have Market and plantations put into the same Pantheon anyways? None of the other Pantheons require two tier two techs in the Ancient Era. I'm still to think that it's better if we adjust a couple of the Pantheons. I don't mind seeing Herbalist being involved instead of Market in the Goddess of Springtime but then the Goddess of Renewal needs to be changed. Maybe Market in the Renewal is better since you have a focus on no improvements but only expanding and building infrastructure.

 

[pineappledan]

I think the food on markets is overkill, as we are changing the look of the pantheon by subbing out gold for food.

just figured a second yield type besides just gold would be preferable to adding gold to a gold building.

I'm gonna say gold one more time. Gold.

Why do we have Market and plantations put into the same Pantheon anyways?

Nothin wrong with 1-2 pantheons having 2 2nd level tech unlocks, as long as it's suitably powerful otherwise.

Methinks the issue with plantations is compounded by it being the only pantheon that also requires you to remove features, and might require both bronze working and calendar AND the bonus building is on a THIRD 2nd tier tech. That having been said, some situationality on the plantation pantheon is fitting because they are the most common type of luxury, and the thing that should really be tipping the balance is something like bananas AND your luxury, or just an absolute silly amount of easy plantation resources near your start. If you make springtime too flexible, well then most civs in most games are looking at a plantation monopoly, so springtime becomes the premier pantheon, and we don't want that either.

That said, that's not every game, and just because tobacco/incense are a faith resources doesn't mean we should nerf springtime. By that logic we need to also look at Coral and God of the Sea... Again. But I don't think we do.

This whole thing about forest plantations makes me think there's room for 1 more pantheon that gives an instant on removing features and non-road improvements. Something to capitalize on a starting location where your land is going to take a lot of clearing/reworking in order to set up.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Nothin wrong with 1-2 pantheons having 2 2nd level tech unlocks, as long as it's suitably powerful otherwise.

Methinks the issue with plantations is compounded by it being the only pantheon that also requires you to remove features, and might require both bronze working and calendar AND the bonus building is on a THIRD 2nd tier tech. That having been said, some situationality on the plantation pantheon is fitting because they are the most common type of luxury, and the thing that should really be tipping the balance is something like bananas AND your luxury, or just an absolute silly amount of easy plantation resources near your start. If you make springtime too flexible, well then most civs in most games are looking at a plantation monopoly, so springtime becomes the premier pantheon, and we don't want that either.

That said, that's not every game, and just because tobacco/incense are a faith resources doesn't mean we should nerf springtime. By that logic we need to also look at Coral and God of the Sea... Again. But I don't think we do.

This whole thing about forest plantations makes me think there's room for 1 more pantheon that gives an instant on removing features and non-road improvements. Something to capitalize on a starting location where your land is going to take a lot of clearing/reworking in order to set up.

Well, the pantheon has to be powerful enough to decide two 2nd level techs for you. That's demanding a lot since your options are very limited. The yields must be really good to delay other techs like Animal Husbandry if you want to get the most benefits out of it.

When you put all the faith in plantations, then this pantheon does become the premier choice for plantations. It's no different than Goddess of Nature is your obvious choice in a mountain heavy map (and if you are lucky enough to have a Natural Wonder nearby as well) and Goddess of Purity being best for starts near many Lakes and/or Marshes. Regarding possible abundance, you mustn't forget that you need a Worker and it takes time to improve those tiles into Plantations.

I guess I don't mind trying it out but I do want to see the Faith yields higher. The time to get Calendar, a Worker and improving the tiles into plantations is quite a few turns required. Let's also not forget that, since you are likely expanding at this stage of the game, you also have fewer pop to work with and that means you might not even work all of your plantations if they are truly abundant.

 

[pineappledan]

It becomes a premier choice for naked/jungle plantations, same as any feature/resource-based pantheon is, and that’s fine.

nNew pantheon idea for those heavy forested “terraformer” starts.
Trickster God
4 Faith and science whenever you remove a feature or complete a non-road tile improvement. +15% worker speed

 

[Stalker0]

It becomes a premier choice for naked/jungle plantations, same as any feature/resource-based pantheon is, and that’s fine.

nNew pantheon idea for those heavy forested “terraformer” starts.
Trickster God
4 Faith and science whenever you remove a feature or complete a non-road tile improvement. +15% worker speed

I do like the remove a feature benefit. I don't think we need a new pantheon per say, I know there are a still few weak ones on the list, so something like this might be worth adding in.

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

It's a great Pantheon when you're Theodora, because you don't need the early faith to found.

 

[Gazebo]

Why do we have Market and plantations put into the same Pantheon anyways? None of the other Pantheons require two tier two techs in the Ancient Era. I'm still to think that it's better if we adjust a couple of the Pantheons. I don't mind seeing Herbalist being involved instead of Market in the Goddess of Springtime but then the Goddess of Renewal needs to be changed. Maybe Market in the Renewal is better since you have a focus on no improvements but only expanding and building infrastructure.

This is the key.

 

[pineappledan]

Pantheons
Swapped Herbalist and Market for Renewal/Springtime
Herbalist bonus now +1 science/+2 faith

This doesn't fix the problem. If the faith isn't going to be moved onto the plantation, that's still 0 faith until a level 2 building, maxing out at 2faith per city when it used to be 3.

This slims down the number of techs to fully deploy the pantheon, but the main issue people were specifically citing was that this pantheon was completely impossible to found with. And that was BEFORE it's total faith generation was cut by 1/3.

Why not just keep the herbalist at +3?

 

[Gazebo]

This doesn't fix the problem. If the faith isn't going to be moved onto the plantation, that's still 0 faith until a level 2 building, maxing out at 2faith per city when it used to be 3.

This slims down the number of techs to fully deploy the pantheon, but the main issue people were specifically citing was that this pantheon was completely impossible to found with. And that was BEFORE it's total faith generation was cut by 1/3.

Why not just keep the herbalist at +3?

AI has no trouble founding with it.

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

AIs are clearly superior to dumb hoomans, we already knew that.

 

[pineappledan]

We already knew that AI don't need as much help from pantheons at higher difficulties. Stalker0 ran multiple tests rushing markets and was never able to found. Why would rushing herbalists be any different?

 

[zeofig]

Regardless of what the AI can do, it's often not possible to found on Immortal with this pantheon unless you have some other faith bonus. However, it's a very strong pantheon that eventually gives huge yields, provided you have some other faith to ensure founding. Very nice with Spain since the gold yields work with the Mission. Disappointing on Indonesia in many cases because you have trouble founding with it.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to summarize my understanding of the changes:

Springtime: +2 gold and +1 food from plantations. Herbalists grant +2 faith and +1 science.
Renewal: +1 Faith and Culture for every 2 jungle/forest worked. Markets grant +2 food and +2 science.

Renewal will be trickier to found with but I think doable (I'll have to try it), at least with tradition builds.

Springtime: So this parring is more natural (everything focuses on plantations), but I do agree its too faith lite. Technically it actually takes longer to get herbalists than markets in most cases because you always need pottery early, so I can get markets in 3 techs, calendar in 4. So I agree this is going to be even faith weaker than the old springtime. I'll try it, but I can't see how I would have a better time founding compared to before. The best part of the change though is that if springtime is taken, I am on a more natural tech path for most builds as opposed to the pigeonholed build I had to use before. But I do think you are going to have to sprinkle some more faith in there somewhere.