[TOT] How to win in Emperor and Deity level ? (newbie)

[miurasrpnt]

Hello, first time posting there.

I played a lot Civ2 ToT when I was younger, only in Chieftain and Warlord, and I was used to win in a military way, by crushing all other civilizations.

For no special reason I've decided to play again and started a new game, in a higher level. As I was expanding my civilization (currently 48 cities), I noticed there were more and more unhappy citizens, and also my ennemies have very small civilizations, like 5 or 6 cities.

I remember there is a direct relation between the happiness of my citizens and the growth of my civilization (and by checking this forum I got confirmation) but, does that mean I have to keep a very small amount of cities if I want my citizens happy ? I mean, I can't win by expanding a large empire ?

Also I've used to set my government as Fundamentalist (by building the Statue of Liberty or just discovering the technology) in order to keep my citizens happy forever and earn a lot of money, so I wanted to know if in Emperor or Deity level this is still viable.
I'm aware the Fundamentalist government ruins your science rate, and that's why I always expand as large as possible my empire, to build scientist improvments in every city. By this way I've managed to get new technology every 3, 4 rounds at the end of the game.

I've read the OCC strategy and never thought about that, and other strategies like having only a tiny amount of cities on an island, and just win the game by science, but it doesn't sound very funny...

The real question here is : how to keep your citizens happy with a big empire ?


Thank you.

 

[Darid]

hi,

Gold, gold, gold and some luck that barbarians don't destroy your civ in the early years. With a lot of caravans, you can raise your luxury rate and keep your pop happy, and try to win with democracy

Buy troops "none" far away to have an army without angry citizens (far away or near an alien city). Choose "hard" for barbarian level to have opportunities.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I've never actually tried those levels with ToT. But having just had a couple of ridiculously easy Lalande games, I might try it. Maybe the aliens won't be trying to attack Kineticores with a Bombus.

I don't play at those levels often anyway. I survived a Deity-level game of Civ I. Once.

 

[miurasrpnt]

Actually I've thought by increasing the difficulty level, the AI would be way more agressive and expand their territory as much as possible, but it seems they are too busy to make their population happy.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Welcome miurasrpnt.

I am a classic player but your dilemma is not specific to ToT and applies to all versions of Civ2. It is very possible to keep your citizens happy in a large empire. As you suspected, the number of unhappy citizens (Reds) increases with the size of your empire. The higher the difficulty level the more quickly this happens. Eventually you run out of content citizens (Blues) and all will be Red. Next Blacks appear... These issues are researched in depth. You can read about them in the Strategy and Tips sub forum. The best thread to start is "Tips & Tricks for new players" which is sticky and on top.

Like you, the first time I read about OCC I was shocked. Not only I never thought about that, but also I could not believe it would be possible. Now I am a great fan and an avid OCC player. It is a lot of fun and a lot faster in terns of real time compared to typical Civ2 games.

Besides studying the Strategy and Tips sub forum, the best way to learn the game is to join the on going Game Of The Month competition. We post a new classic game (which can then be played in all versions of Civ2) every month. We start from that initial save and each of us play based on our own preferred strategies. We then discuss the game, post status snapshots, compare our progress, and at end get recognition awards based on our final submission. Check out the GOTM sub forum.

 

[miurasrpnt]

Hey,

Thank you for the reply, I've never heard about those "Black" citizens (no bad joke here), I almost want to try Deity level just to see them hehe.
I read the "Tips & Tricks" thread, it's quite helpful indeed.

Isn't your science rate extremely low when you play OCC mode ? I mean, since you can only build one scientist improvment, regardless of how many Wonders you could stack there...

I've read some of the GOTM challenges, I will try it somedays

It is very possible to keep your citizens happy in a large empire.

How ? My only idea here is to rush Fundamentalism technology.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I've never heard about those "Black" citizens

Look them up. They are alternatively known as black heads. You get them at any level not just Deitly but your empire has to get bigger.

Isn't your science rate extremely low when you play OCC mode ? I mean, since you can only build one scientist improvment, regardless of how many Wonders you could stack there...

No. Having one city has advantages. In the beginning you do not build one settler after another so your city grows faster. Because you only have one city, your land improvements come faster as well. Typically, after Newton I get a tech every other turn without help from trade. This usually lasts up to early future techs. If I make a delivery I can usually get a tech per a single turn. Take a look at some spoiler threads in the GOTM forum and see for yourself. (Spoiler threads are where we talk about our game, post logs, post snapshots, ... )

I've read some of the GOTM challenges, I will try it somedays

The current one for Nov 2016 is a special game on a gigantic map of the earth with special rules; https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-184.603698/. There is still plenty of time to join and play that. The December one will be posted by this coming Monday.

How ? My only idea here is to rush Fundamentalism technology.

The answer, like most Civ2 discussions, depends on 3 factors: your chosen strategy to win (early conquest, early landing, OCC, high score, ...), your style of play, and the map/starting conditions. Fundamentalism is the ideal route for mid game conquest. It does not work for early conquest, landing, ... For example, if I am going for early landing I want to get to Democracy as quickly as possible. Depending on the map/starting conditions and my style of play this may be after some initial warfare/conquest or without any warfare. I will set a luxury rate of 20% to 40%, build Michelangelo and Bach as soon as they become available, make sure all cities larger than size 3 have a marketplace, and cities at size 7 and above get a temple. All cities aim for 3 trade routes preferably with foreign cities. Larger cities get a Bank. Late in the game, many get superhighways, .... Not only do I not get any unrest but almost all my cities above size 3 will be celebrating and thus increasing in size every turn. (And there in lies the power of Democracy.)

 

[miurasrpnt]

All cities aim for 3 trade routes preferably with foreign cities.

What is the main goal of trading with foreign cities ? Does it increase your luxury rate ?
I noticed AI trade a lot, while I'm just producing caravans to build wonders faster.

almost all my cities above size 3 will be celebrating

Two questions here : What is the effect of celebrations ? How to keep as long as possible the celebration ?


Thank you a lot for your patience and all your answers. I started to play Civ2 at the age of 10 and played in a very naive way for long years :
1. expand / make war
2. reach or steal Fundamentalism (or Fanatism in the great Fantasy mode, which is the main reason I've never wanted to play any other version of Civilization)
3. invade everybody / buy wonders that ennemies are trying build
4. win ?

Now that I earned some good gaming experiences on other games, I would like to understand better the mecanisms of Civ2.


EDIT :
Ok so I've finished my first OCC game (with the rules of this forum), in King level. Couldn't build my spaceship at time.
I've tried to follow as close as possible the advices I've found here and there :
- built my city on a nice environment
- built one Settler
- built one warrior and sent him to seek some huts
- built Colossus
- built Marco Polo and started to trade some knowledges
I think here's my error. I gave to them too many knowledges in order to stay in peace and make some alliances.
- built Copernic then Shakespeare
AI slowly started to get more technlogies than me.
- built Leonard and Isaac
- built University and Laboratory
After that I've reached a Net Science of 568 but still any new discovery takes me 4 turns.
AI started to build Apollo one turn before me. I didn't know how they did this but several civilizations (let's say 4) were able to build and finish Apollo in only one round. With several cities.
Then they just build Structural, Module and Component and obviously I couldn't finish my spaceship before them with just one city.
I was also quite poor during the whole game, finishing with a Income of 50, and a Cost of 45, so I couldn't even buy pieces for my spaceship at each turn.


Also I was quite surprised to see (with the Cheat mode when the game was over) AI have some big civilizations (20 ~30 cities) and a hell LOT of military units, like 60 heavy ships and 30 planes... And of course tons of money (20 000 ~30 000 gold).
I don't really know what happened in my previous game (--> first post of this thread : "As I was expanding my civilization (currently 48 cities), [...] and also my ennemies have very small civilizations, like 5 or 6 cities."), because for real, with only FOUR advanced military units, I've destroyed two civilizations lol.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

What is the main goal of trading with foreign cities ? Does it increase your luxury rate ?

Trading, whether foreign or domestic, establishes a trade route (up to 3) in your city. Every route brings in extra arrows that can be used just like other arrows. The larger, the farther, and the more developed the trading partner the larger the value of the route. When the partner is foreign, the value of the route is doubled.

I noticed AI trade a lot, while I'm just producing caravans to build wonders faster.

Trade is arguably the most powerful aspect of Civ2. Once you learn how to use it, it will be the other way around. You will be the one trading a lot; a lot more than all your AI rivals combined.

Two questions here : What is the effect of celebrations ?

The effect depends on your government type, but the effect is great enough in all cases that you want to do all you can to keep celebrating. In Republic and Democracy your city gets an additional citizen every turn you are celebrating as long as there is extra food regardless of how full your foodbox is. That is how in OCC you get to size 20+ while your rivals are well under size 8.

Now that I earned some good gaming experiences on other games, I would like to understand better the mecanisms of Civ2.

Keep reading the Strategy subforum and join the GOTMs so you see how others play.