How Underground Sect actually works

[beetle]

Take those things away from your opponents. Except 3, which AIs can't do.

None of that really matters though, and AI get other CS quests, so why not the conversion one?

Also the best defense for your religion is always spreading your religion...

Not at all. It is pretty easy to keep your own cities converted. Spreading to an AI that founded is just asking for trouble, so actually counter-productive for any sort of defense.

...and the same goes for spreading followers around for Tithe and World Church

I have not watched either of these closely enough. Tithe does well enough just on my own cities. World Church seems very weak.

I just assumed this was obvious... but that's not explaining this conversation.

No, not obvious at all.

Still think it's crap for a reformation belief but it's a rather interesting find

Well, I like Evangelism well enough, but now I think Underground Sect is stronger than that!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Not at all. It is pretty easy to keep your own cities converted. Spreading to an AI that founded is just asking for trouble,

Actually that sounds perfect, founding AIs only get mad at you for using Missionaries and Prophets to convert their cities.
The spies do it in a deniable way (its 'natural pressure')
Although you may get in trouble if the spies steal something.

 

[Redaxe]

Wow its good to be back after the forum outage

That's a pretty interesting find with Underground Sect - I tried it once but couldn't seem to really get any noticeable results out of it so I must have had my spies on the other side of the map.

That said there are still a lot of disadvantages to this belief even using it correctly.

Firstly and most obviously - You want to spread your religion asap in the medieval/renaissance era to get your religious buildings and benefits of beliefs quickly. By the time you have several spies to really get the full benefit of this belief you're already into the final era's and a bit more religious pressure isn't going to do anything that significant to help you win. You only get 1 spy until the Industrial era so that's pretty mediocre in itself.

Also it requires you to put spies in cities that have a religious follower - that generally means putting a spy in a city within range of your trade routes or passive religious pressure - this can be risky if you steal a technology from a neighbour and you get a permanent diplomatic penalty.
Usually I send my spies to civs that are far away from me so if they do get caught the diplomatic penalty isn't so dangerous.
That said I can see it being useful for putting spies in a CityState but that sacrifices the opportunities to steal technologies.

Still I love the concept of this though- Civ 5 espionage has introduced some neat functions but it still feels a bit limited. I'd like to have seen Religious Sect provide an increase to spy stealing rate and success and also perhaps providing a tourism bonus over that civ or contributing to ideology dissent.

 

[beetle]

...founding AIs only get mad at you for using Missionaries and Prophets to convert their cities. The spies do it in a deniable way (its 'natural pressure')

Brilliant! Sadly, that aspect did not occur to me! It has been so long since I have tried to convert founding AIs that I have forgotten why that once appealed to me?

Although you may get in trouble if the spies steal something.

You get enough warning that this should be easy enough to avoid. Just shuffle the spy around for turn to reset the counter, just a few turns lost to the Underground Sect effect. But the first tech steal does not come at too harsh of a penalty. Although I suppose a main point is to get the ‘shared religion’ diplo buff, so why take a diplo hit?

You want to spread your religion asap in the medieval/renaissance era to get your religious buildings and benefits of beliefs quickly.

It would be pretty rare to need to use the Underground Sect on your own cities.

By the time you have several spies to really get the full benefit of this belief you're already into the final era's and a bit more religious pressure isn't going to do anything that significant to help you win. You only get 1 spy until the Industrial era so that's pretty mediocre in itself.

Yes, but the one spy moves on after converting a city. I think the single spy and the timing should be okay. It is after the wave of AI GPr. I am eager to try this on the Siam OCC DCL. Seems like it would be perfect for converting Assyria -- which, on one play through, I actually made some effort with, but could not get any traction (and that was with Evangelism).

Also it requires you to put spies in cities that have a religious follower - that generally means putting a spy in a city within range of your trade routes or passive religious pressure - this can be risky if you steal a technology from a neighbour and you get a permanent diplomatic penalty.

That is not hard to avoid.

Usually I send my spies to civs that are far away from me so if they do get caught the diplomatic penalty isn't so dangerous.

Yes, me too.

That said I can see it being useful for putting spies in a CityState but that sacrifices the opportunities to steal technologies.

I usually park leveled-up spies in CS to keep them permanently allied. Underground Sect would work well with that, but just for the extra gold from Tithe.

Still I love the concept of this though- Civ 5 espionage has introduced some neat functions but it still feels a bit limited. I'd like to have seen Religious Sect provide an increase to spy stealing rate and success and also perhaps providing a tourism bonus over that civ or contributing to ideology dissent.

It is great to have another task for spies.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I'd like to have seen Religious Sect provide an increase to spy stealing rate and success and also perhaps providing a tourism bonus over that civ or contributing to ideology dissent.

If you convert enough of their cities, you get a tourism bonus from shared religion (founding doesn't matter just following)

 

[Aenthin]

I think the most particularly noteworthy aspect of Underground Sect is that it only gets stronger in late game as you get more spies when you advance technologically. The fact that it helps spread religion allows you to spread your tourism through shared religion while still being able to save faith points for more important Great People. It also frees up some Great Prophets for additional Holy Sites rather than being concerned about converting more cities.

 

[shaglio]

Still think it's crap for a reformation belief but it's a rather interesting find

It seems like it's a consolation prize. Say you want Sacred Sites or Jesuit Education, so you start spending SPs in Piety. But before you can get to Reformation, somebody else picks the one you wanted. What can you do? You've already spent a bunch of SPs in the Piety tree, so you don't want them to be wasted. You might as well make the most of it by taking another Reformation Belief: Underground Sect.

Especially if you were going SS for a CV, US helps provide a Tourism bonus of having a shared religion.

 

[Acken]

Hehe, so you're going SS and take US ? There is a problem don't you think ?

I don't really see how using a policy for having to use a spy that spreads your religion is really attractive. This can be removed by an inquisitor or a prophet and we all know how the AI love spaming religious units.

Consolation price seems to be the right word. I'd take Charitable missions before that too.

 

[Gurra09]

What about diplomats? Do they also exert pressure with Underground Sect or is it only spy spies who do that?

 

[beetle]

It seems like it's a consolation prize.... What can you do?

I hate to find myself disagreeing with Acken, but I don't think this is the case at all. I have always had specific intentions for a reformation belief.

• Aiming for a quick SS CV, only SS will do. That exploit has to be early or don’t bother, not that it will be available later anyway -- since the AI love it. I don’t how see how US, which only starts after you get a spy, is much use towards CV.
• Jesuit Education is terrific but also needs to be earlish, before Universities. Since the fall patch JE seems to be much harder to catch, but is significantly easier to pick up than SS. There is no substitute for JE.
• To the Glory of God is terrific, can be late, and is almost always available. So as the main objection of Reformation or as a “consolation prize” TtGoG has the player covered.
• Spreading my religion outside my cities.

In terms of this last point, I had valued Evangelism as being very strong, although some people argue that Charitable Missions is better if your target is only CS. Evangelism has synergy with an enhancer and two of the three religious wonders. That said, even when the three pieces all came together for me, Evangelism never seemed to get me that much traction.

This thread makes me think that US has a stronger conversion effect than either Evangelism or CM. Even better is that it's use is independent of enhancers or wonders, works equally well on AIs as CS, and can be used on AIs that found as well as AIs without their own religion. It also works well with the technique of parking a spy in the most important CS, something players do anyway. Win/win/win!

So maybe US is consolation prize if TtGoG is not available, but otherwise I think it is quite attractive as the main reason for pursuing Reformation! I look forward to giving it a try!

What about diplomats? Do they also exert pressure with Underground Sect or is it only spy spies who do that?

Per OP, yes. See the linked Reddit article in OP for additional details.

 

[Aenthin]

What about diplomats? Do they also exert pressure with Underground Sect or is it only spy spies who do that?

When your spy/diplomat is sent to a city...

So yes. They also exert pressure.

 

[killmeplease]

it can have a nice synergy with papal primacy and consulates, to become permanent friends with most CS on the map what is huge, especially on large maps / quick speed where spreading with missionaries is problemmatic.

missionaries cost faith, require open borders, should cross hard terrain and traffic jams, require maintenance, harm relations etc etc. spreading with US can be much easier.
and save you more faith for great people or buildings

 

[killmeplease]

england gets an additional spy, perfect for US

 

[KrikkitTwo]

it can have a nice synergy with papal primacy and consulates, to become permanent friends with most CS on the map what is huge, especially on large maps / quick speed where spreading with missionaries is problemmatic.

missionaries cost faith, require open borders, should cross hard terrain and traffic jams, require maintenance, harm relations etc etc. spreading with US can be much easier.
and save you more faith for great people or buildings

Well that only works if your religion is present in the CS... which means consciously using trade routes + spy.

That said it is good for maintaining that. Especially with the friendly CS enhancer

 

[beetle]

...especially on large maps / quick speed where spreading with missionaries is problematic.

I agree with the synergy of Papal Primacy (and with England), and don't know how quick speed changes things -- but larger maps are worse for US. It has zero effect unless there is at least one follower and/or a trade route.

One long-standing frustration I have had is that with larger CS, one GPr is often not enough to convert, and trade route pressure (even with RT) might not be enough to to tip the CS over. After conversion, a single RT enhanced trade route might not be enough to keep the CS in the fold.

I have tried US now, and it works as advertised! One GPr spread plus a spy has done the job every time -- and works for CS outside of range of trade routes. A trade route plus a spy takes longer, but is also quite reliable. Once converted, if the spy stays, the CS stays converted (absent AI GPr spreads).

I am still struggling with how to work Piety into my typical Tradition/Rationalism play, but my early experiments with the US effects are quite encouraging!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree with the synergy of Papal Primacy (and with England), and don't know how quick speed changes things -- but larger maps are worse for US. It has zero effect unless there is at least one follower and/or a trade route.

One long-standing frustration I have had is that with larger CS, one GPr is often not enough to convert, and trade route pressure (even with RT) might not be enough to to tip the CS over. After conversion, a single RT enhanced trade route might not be enough to keep the CS in the fold.

I have tried US now, and it works as advertised! One GPr spread plus a spy has done the job every time -- and works for CS outside of range of trade routes. A trade route plus a spy takes longer, but is also quite reliable. Once converted, if the spy stays, the CS stays converted (absent AI GPr spreads).

I am still struggling with how to work Piety into my typical Tradition/Rationalism play, but my early experiments with the US effects are quite encouraging!

One point... if your spy is Staying in the CS, then Papal Primacy is not useful... The spy will rig the elections and keep you friendly or even allied.

Better is to move the spy on shortly after they have done their job. (possibly as a diplomat to a capital nearby the CS if you don't want to cause diplomatic incidents)

The beauty of this is in essentially converting one city after another "secretly" in a way no one objects to.. although they will fight it.

Essentially the spy acts as an additional Holy city for your religion.

 

[killmeplease]

I agree with the synergy of Papal Primacy (and with England), and don't know how quick speed changes things -- but larger maps are worse for US. It has zero effect unless there is at least one follower and/or a trade route.

on larger maps it takes longer to bring your missionary into position. especially if the terrain is rough. while it always takes only 3 turns to move a spy.
on quick speed it gets worse, as travel times become relatively longer to everything else.

with US you have to bring only 1 missionary to infest a city or two, then move there a spy and complete a conversion. later you can convert city by city in a chain reaction as those epicenter cities will soon create followers in their neightbours.

yeah reformation + consulates is problemmatic.. it seems you should rely on this from start, that is no tradition (4 policies in piety + 2 in patronage = 6 policies, same as one complete tree but with no finisher..). You have to have some good nearby CS to make it viable. You get their friendship bonuses and occasionally ally with them. also you take benefits of religion. pagodas can be problemmatic as you are not ICSing but some happiness beliefs like religious centers / peace gardens are always nice (good civs: indonesia, songai, egypt). policy order: piety opener, organized religion, patronage opener, consulates, religion tolerance, reformation. later in the game this combo far outweights tradition if you can defend your religion.

 

[killmeplease]

btw what exactly is required for US to work, followers or pressure?

 

[Sclb]

From the OP

When your spy/diplomat is sent to a city, Underground Sect will only work:

If there is existing pressure exerted towards the target city, or
If the city has at least 1 follower of your religion

 

[beetle]

One point... if your spy is Staying in the CS, then Papal Primacy is not useful... The spy will rig the elections and keep you friendly or even allied.

I agree. The strongest play with US, assuming Consulates and PP, is having a spy get a CS converted and then moving on. Parking spy in CS to maintain allied status is something any old spy could do.

Better is to move the spy on shortly after they have done their job.

I would wait until the next election, but I completely agree.

possibly as a diplomat to a capital nearby the CS if you don't want to cause diplomatic incidents

Brilliant, but it does not necessarily have to be a capital! The player wants to work on AI cities anyway, hopefully to get one of them to propose World Religion in the WC. Converted AI cities will help CS stay in the fold. I really want to try this with Byzantium sometime, so I can have Papal Primacy and World Church.

The beauty of this is in essentially converting one city after another "secretly" in a way no one objects to.. although they will fight it.

Converting cities near another Holy City is still probably a loosing proposition, but on an 8 player map, 3 AIs do not found. I think US could be very effective on converting those civs -- something I have never gotten much traction with (even when I tried pretty hard).

Essentially the spy acts as an additional Holy city for your religion.

Yes, multiple mobile invisible Holy Cities!