How would they ever know?

[gozpel]

I start as Rome on a continents map, and find that I'm alone with 3 CS.

Usually, I never kill CS, but here I wanted all land for myself and grow to 11 cities total, 3 puppet CS included. At second CS city, a message come up that CS should be worried.

So after Astronomy I find the rest of the world and trade my luxes. All is fine until I meet Arabia, who is guarded against me: "We think you are a warmongering menace to the world".

Yeah right. you meet me now and I have a very friendly caravel skimming your borders, in what way am I a warmonger? I've met new CS and they have nothing against me, but you Arabia, think I am a bad boy?

I play on and make allies with 3 more CS, not a whinge and then later meeting Siam. They are already guarded as well and think I'm a warmonger!!!???

So CS's are to be worried about my behaviour on my own continent, but when all taken not a whisper of hatred from the CS's. But some AI's without a clue where I live, decide I'm a warmongerer?

Not that I'm saying diplo is broken....

 

[Camikaze]

You could make an argument that they hear of your reputation regardless of when they meet you. History spreads.

But yeah. I don't like it either.

 

[animalguy]

At least they weren't coveting your lands before they had even seen them . That happened in my reccent game where Siam, who I met nowhere near my capital had decided that even lands he had no knowladge of were better than his fertile river valley.

 

[The_J]

You also know when somebody, who you never met before, has finished a wonder at the other side of the globe...

 

[Bandersnatching]

And when civilizations that you haven't met lose their capital.
I think that you shouldn't receive diplomatic penalties for things you did before other civs met you, though. It just seems odd.

 

[Disgustipated]

Think of it this way. When they come over to your continent eventually, they are going travel through the small towns on their way to the capital. They'll converse with the local populace and get a feel for the place. Even though they may be your citizens, they are libel to reveal that you did conquer such and such city in your past.

After all, we know of every single Roman conquest they had in their history. Yet the U.S. wasn't present to see it.

That said, I'd like to see past transgressions fade away. What I do in ancient times should not reflect on my empire in modern times.

 

[blackcatatonic]

And when civilizations that you haven't met lose their capital.
I think that you shouldn't receive diplomatic penalties for things you did before other civs met you, though. It just seems odd.

Would that not just be a license to wipe out every Civ on your continent though? Personally I'm glad that there are diplomatic penalties for warmongering, although I do think they are excessive and have been poorly implemented.

People knew the Mongols were coming ages before they showed up. As someone said, fear spreads.

 

[warlordtheft]

Would that not just be a license to wipe out every Civ on your continent though? Personally I'm glad that there are diplomatic penalties for warmongering, although I do think they are excessive and have been poorly implemented.

People knew the Mongols were coming ages before they showed up. As someone said, fear spreads.

My main problem is not that there is a penalty, but that it is a static one and doesnt fade over time. Like it decreases by 1% to 5% a turn or something. Also I don't think there should be any penalty for defending oneself and then taking it to the enemy.

 

[gozpel]

Think of it this way. When they come , they are going travel through the small towns on their way to the capital. They'll converse with the local populace and get a feel for the place. Even though they may be your citizens, they are libel to reveal that you did conquer such and such city in your past.

After all, we know of every single Roman conquest they had in their history. Yet the U.S. wasn't present to see it.

That said, I'd like to see past transgressions fade away. What I do in ancient times should not reflect on my empire in modern times.

When they sail over to your continent eventually, IS the point. They haven't seen my lands, as regarding about the poster that mentioned "coveting lands". Same ridiculous thing.

In my case, I meet them before they have caravels and they should greet me with open arms. Nowhere in the game is a dingy with a few survivors from my CS-attacks being possible. I can't row a dingy on oceantiles, neither should the wind spread the words of my evil deeds.

And "coveting my lands" is just so stupid, start covet when you know where I am and I be satisfied with that. Same with your idea, Disgustipated. WHEN they enter my lands, then a penalty might be considered. Not 300 years before they can reach those lands....

And the funny thing, if you kill 2 CS on Pangaea they all will be in constant war with you, in this game none of the CS hated me for anything, just a couple of AI's!

 

[blackcatatonic]

My main problem is not that there is a penalty, but that it is a static one and doesnt fade over time. Like it decreases by 1% to 5% a turn or something.

I do agree that it doesn't fade quickly enough. That said, there are ways to avoid it - provoke the AI into war, don't wipe them out completely, etc.

Also I don't think there should be any penalty for defending oneself and then taking it to the enemy.

There isn't, provided that they declare on you, you don't sign peace after defending yourself and you leave them with one city. I don't think that's unreasonable. It would be nice if the AI was sophisticated enough to remember that the Civ you've just wiped out declared war on you first, though.

 

[Disgustipated]

Yeah, the obvious real world example is WW2 Germany and Japan. The world doesn't hate us because we completely conquered them. The world remembers they started it first. Just like we had to do to Germany and Japan, sometimes in my games I need to <snip> slap the AI's down to nothing because they keep declaring on me. Usually after the second time they declare on me, I decide to wipe them out to 1 city if they are close. I'd rather take all their cities, but as mentioned above, too much penalty. So I'm stuck with one AI city in my lands.

Moderator Action: Inappropriate language removed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[ecki2k]

Would that not just be a license to wipe out every Civ on your continent though? Personally I'm glad that there are diplomatic penalties for warmongering, although I do think they are excessive and have been poorly implemented.
People knew the Mongols were coming ages before they showed up. As someone said, fear spreads.

That´s what I usually do if I go for conquest. Wipe out each and every civ on my continent before some invents astronomy.
Never got a diplo "prejudice" that way when finally meeting the civs across the oceans... always felt that to be correct, is it not?

 

[The Little One]

Yeah, there should be a system whereby if you kill all the 'witnesses' no one minds

 

[Luckystrike77]

When the Spaniards met the Aztecs the first time, of course they soon found out the Aztecs had been building their empire as huge warmongers the years before.

 

[gozpel]

When the Spaniards met the Aztecs the first time, of course they soon found out the Aztecs had been building their empire as huge warmongers the years before.

Not comparable!

They DO NOT KNOW WHERE I LIVE!

After 300 years and they getting caravels, I can buy into your line.

They see me for the first time, they never met anything of the remains of the CS's, WHY on earth would they hate me????

Make sense of this, Lucky?

 

[Sporaticus]

The programmers set the game up to be a military game, unlike Civ4 where you could reasonably expect to play a peaceful strategy. To that end, everything you do is going to count against you with the other civs and drive you ever closer to the inevitable military conflict. They'll find reasons to hate you even if your existence is mere rumor and innuendo to them. They covet your lands, because they covet ALL lands.They call you a menace even as they, themselves, engage in a bloodthirsty rampage against their own neighboring CSs.They do this because they want to forment resentment against you and because they are, in reality, a bunch of bratty little electronic WoW personality types.

 

[gozpel]

Doesn't still give the rights for them to hate me.

I kill my continent, end of story, I meet new guys and they hate me for what they never knew!

 

[Sporaticus]

The game should at least give us the same intelligence against the AIs that they have against us. The second you meet someone, there should be a popup menu that tells you everything they have done, and who they did it to. Maybe the espionage in G&K will partially remedy the imbalance.

 

[gozpel]

The game should at least give us the same intelligence against the AIs that they have against us. The second you meet someone, there should be a popup menu that tells you everything they have done, and who they did it to. Maybe the espionage in G&K will partially remedy the imbalance.

Amen to that!

They seem to know everyting, seeing those scouts/warriors beelining to ruins? If you're in a tile to see a CS, of course you walk there. But I've seen the AI bypass them just to get that goodyhut, because my next move of my warrior is to the CS and I get 30 gold. We were on the same type of tiles and the AI decided to continue south, without saying hello to the CS, because a ruin was down there.

My new scout got it a turn before he got it, and yes, now he runs back to be friends with Genoa. I hate the AI radar-GPS!

 

[Moriarte]

The game should at least give us the same intelligence against the AIs that they have against us. The second you meet someone, there should be a popup menu that tells you everything they have done, and who they did it to. Maybe the espionage in G&K will partially remedy the imbalance.

One other 'imbalance' to mention is the ability to sell almost anything to AI regardless of whether they need it or not. That gives me 5k+ gold during the course of the game, which yields 10 free technologies, alliances and/or most advanced army on map. How is that fair play?