How would you change existing civs in BNW?

[ehecatzin]

to be honest I dont get all these threads of existing civs changes, if they were already in the first game why bringing them back to the expansion? they were in the first for a reason, and now i dont find a reason at all, usually expansions are made to add something new, and not to adapt something already done in the main game to the expansion.

Yes, but expansion also add new mechanics, tweaks, etc, that affect the way the game is played, and can affect civs that werent created with those mechanics in mind, best example, France.

Dont forget that the game changed direction after vainilla, 2 expansions later the game plays very diferently than it did when it launched, some tweaks here and there to old civs to keep them fun, if anything makes the whole game better.

 

[Talcove]

India
America
India
Germany
India
Russia
India

Don't forget India.

 

[kingchris20]

Will Hiawatha's rapid expansion be too extreme in BNW? Should they tone it down or leave as is?

I hate spawning next to Hiawatha for that very reason, I just can't figure out how he can push out so many settlers and units at the same time??

 

[GenjiKhan]

America: The direction they can follow in this expansion could be similar to Brazil,which is being weaker on early game and getting stronger on mid and late game . Two possibilites for buffing up Manifest destiny are:

- American Great Merchants can perform trade missions on other civilizations,beside city-states . You'll get tourism bonus on that civilization and this civilization will receive +10% of the you earned . The tourism bonus will be half of the bonus given by a concert tour performed by a great musician;
- When having a trade route to one civilization and receiving a trade route from this same civilization,America and their commercial partner gain a +15% boost on great merchant generations;

Germany: There can be plenty of approaches for improving them . One of my favorite ones is letting them control units from allied city-states when they engage(or got engaged) on a war;

Siam: They used to be very powerful when only culture was important to cultural victories . Now that culture from city-states aren't that great anymore,they need to get buffed up a bit . One of the possibilities is having them to receive one extra delegate for each allied city-state;

 

[Calouste]

India is the one that needs to be absolutely reworked, its the only UA with penalties.

France and possibly Germany are getting reworked, which is a good sign, some other civs could do with tweaks to keep them on level with BNW.

America the extra sight is useful, but tile purchasing is rather situational, I'd like it if they got rid of the tile purchase and gave them a late game cultural bonus, something to form strong ideologic blocks.

Russia The Krepost could use some love to make it worth it, considering their start bias, it would made sense to give the Russians some sort of bonus to tundra tiles, it fits them flavour wise.

Bizantium Give them coastal start bias, cost for founding a religion not go up for them and make the Cathaphract a knight replacement. And voila you've got a cool civ now, you can get your religion on time, use the Dromon in the early game, and use the Cathaphract to wage your religious wars in the middle game.

Mongolia A simple addition would make them that more useful: tribute from CS doubled. You are not going to be making friends anyway, extort a lot of money and workers from CS's, build a strong force with it, and go conquer the world, if a CS is being problematic come back, bully them again and conquer them anyway.

The Krepost would already be significantly improved if they made it a Walls replacement rather than a Barracks replacement. Walls have some use for a small city in the Barbarian infested Tundra, Barracks don't.

 

[Optional]

I hope they keep India as they are, and also Germany. Those civs play differently, and Zulu will be very different from Germany as well.

Japan nobody mentions, but this is about the only civ in the game that lacks any unique ability. Normally there's a slight combat penalty when a unit is wounded, and this penalty is removed for Japan, but that's not a positive ability, and it doesn't give you anything to play with.
The Samurai gets a free promotion that any other melee unit can also get, so also here nothing special. The zero is late, I forgot what they have, but I believe people aren't that chuffed about this unit either.
I see no single reason to play Japan at the moment; they're utterly bland. No penalties, but no positive specialties either.

I see the topic title is how we would change existing civs. Okay then, I don't think Japan will be changed, but a suggestion I have is that Japanese units built from barracks each start with a random promotion instead of 15 XP points (inspired by the Kris ability, but they get promotions that are unique and from their first battle, so it would be different enough). The current Bushido may stay.
Samurai must then be changed, because of overlap with the barracks. Don't know how. Maybe a healing bonus in friendly territory or when adjacent to a great general?

 

[Securion]

Yea Germany needs some changes as well.
They are known for great people, all-around efficiency, science and engineering, and I think they should have something that reflects that.

 

[LordProtector]

I hate spawning next to Hiawatha for that very reason, I just can't figure out how he can push out so many settlers and units at the same time??

This. ^

It's not so much that he goes wide quick, but it's his rabid production abilities. It's insane and makes no sense to the civ. The Iroquois UB as a workshop replacement is bizzare, a barracks or even a colosseum would've been better. Kill the Longhouse, Firaxis, and we'll talk.

I'd like England to get nerfed in the UA department too. Maybe restrict the plus two movement to cargo ships only. No problem with Liz being fierce at sea, but SNS and SotL is crazy.

 

[Evie94]

MUST BE REWORKED
India
Germany

SHOULD BE REWORKED
Byzantium
America
Huns
Mongols

 

[Seek]

This. ^

It's not so much that he goes wide quick, but it's his rabid production abilities. It's insane and makes no sense to the civ. The Iroquois UB as a workshop replacement is bizzare, a barracks or even a colosseum would've been better. Kill the Longhouse, Firaxis, and we'll talk.

The Longhouse is worse than the Workshop in cities with little forest since it doesn't get the +10% production, and the AI *loves* to chop. Almost every city of Hiawatha's has at most one or two forest tiles (even if it was started in the center of a huge forest) in my games. It's not the Longhouse that makes him a monster AI but his flavors.

 

[Optional]

Yea Germany needs some changes as well.
They are known for great people, all-around efficiency, science and engineering, and I think they should have something that reflects that.

They save money and hammers with their current bonuses, so there's at least your efficiency. Their current bonuses aren't of the military kind, just achieved through their military.
Their incorporation of barbs can be seen as a feature reflecting the current inclusiveness of their society.
I know Luther was German, and culturally and scientifically Germany's had their stand-out people as well, so in areas of faith, culture and science Germany has had its representatives, of course, but the game needs to make choices with regards to the bonuses a civilization is getting. Germany can't have all.
Besides, you could argue that Germans didn't exactly stand at the cradle of religion, culture of science. It were older civilizations who did that, and the game seems to value that higher, looking at the present distribution of bonuses. To me it's not clear whether the citicism over Germany's design is just about Germany or whether it's about the game as a whole?
Practically the question is; what bonuses does Germany deserve in comparison to, say, Babylon? I don't think I've seen any of the people who are in favour of a different Germany answer that question.

For me Germany are fun to play at the moment. I don't mind if they get changed if really 90% of the the fans want that, but then I'd like the barb drafting feature to get retained in some form in the game, as it's too much fun to play with that. Maybe it can then be recycled as part of the Honour tree?

 

[Seek]

Maybe it can then be recycled as part of the Honour tree?

That's a fantastic idea, it would really make going Honor beastly in the early game and a true contender against Tradition and Liberty.

 

[toft]

The german UA has always bothered me. And the gray color... it's depressing.

 

[Imalich]

Japan nobody mentions, but this is about the only civ in the game that lacks any unique ability. Normally there's a slight combat penalty when a unit is wounded, and this penalty is removed for Japan, but that's not a positive ability, and it doesn't give you anything to play with.

I would like if they gave "Bushido" promotion to Samurais and gave Japan another UA altogether. But I don't really see that happening...

Civs needing change (the ones I see as nearly unplayable), I think, are India and Byzantium.
Civs that would really welcome a change are America, Germany and the Mongols.

 

[Fummy]

England:
I know they got another spy in G&K in addition to the +2 movement for ships, but really its not very useful overall. Extra movement doesn't actually make your ships tougher or anything, sure you can get places faster (maybe helping to found the global congress) but does that really reflect the English naval strength?

I'd prefer a bonus to making ships e.g. +25%
Or something to reflect England (or Britains) effect on industrialisation, as Britain was the first country to really kick of the industrial revolution. Maybe they should get x2 coal, leading to the ability to build more factories. Similar to russia's x2 uranium iron and horses.

Netherlands:
There ability to keep half of the happiness when they sell there last recourse doesn't really come in handy. You may occasionally get the +2 but most of the time the civs won't trade unless they get 2 resources and give you 1.
But luckily I'm almost certain their ability will be changed. Its name "east india company" implies trade, and with the new trading system in BNW there's no way they wouldn't change it.

 

[truenarnian]

I'm surprised that I'm the first to mention it, but shouldn't Polynesia get a tweak that makes more sense in BNW? Moai should give tourism. Perhaps an early maritime trade route that is taken away in the following era.

 

[Optional]

Netherlands:
There ability to keep half of the happiness when they sell there last recourse doesn't really come in handy. You may occasionally get the +2 but most of the time the civs won't trade unless they get 2 resources and give you 1.

Are you attempting to trade a lux for a lux? The AI doesn't like to trade away its last lux of a type, but they're always willing to part with their money for it.
Some civs, like Babylon or the Huns, like to be a bit awkward, so they mostly don't want to pay the full amount of 240, and civs that are pissed off for whatever reason the same thing, but even then you'll still get a decent amount for it, something around 200 gold or so.

 

[CleverFool]

India I think is the most obvious one. I think something involving Faith or Growth (or both) along rivers would work well. Also boosting the Mughal Fort to some degree. I'd have India as a major faith power, as there really aren't all that many other civs that really stand out in that sense (other than Celts, Ethiopia and ~Byzantium). Or maybe something that relates happiness to faith.

Germany is another civ that's okay, but especially with the introduction of Zulu seems to be that much more lacklustre. I think both UUs are okay (if you ever get far enough to actually use Panzers). Much like with Japan's Zero, I think that the Panzer should be buffed to really allow if to dominate so late in the game. Even changing the UA to make it more consistent would be appreciated. As is, a string of bad luck can make it near useless. Perhaps something like a larger gold income (similar to Songhai) + a production bonus / increase in population to the nearest city representing the amalgamation of the tribes would be better. It would encourage barb hunting, somewhat represent early German history, and allow you to plan a little better.

Other than, Arabia's UA will no doubt have to be adjusted, but does not require any huge change, as their UU and UB are both fantastic.

 

[Optional]

India I think is the most obvious one. I think something involving Faith or Growth (or both) along rivers would work well. Also boosting the Mughal Fort to some degree. I'd have India as a major faith power, as there really aren't all that many other civs that really stand out in that sense (other than Celts, Ethiopia and ~Byzantium).

You're forgetting the Maya (pyramids), Songhai (mud pyramids) and Indonesia (candi).
Byzantium is a bit problematic. They don't have anything to help them gather faith, but need it for their ability. Anything that helps other civs gather faith will weaken Byzantium further.

 

[ehecatzin]

The Krepost would already be significantly improved if they made it a Walls replacement rather than a Barracks replacement. Walls have some use for a small city in the Barbarian infested Tundra, Barracks don't.

That its a great idea, and it could piss off your neighboors while going wide, found a new city close to them, build a krepost, and start grabbing resource tiles or use it to take those resource rich areas in tundra.

As for Japan, I think Bushido is similar to Rome in the sense that its a very useful UA, that gets really boring.

This is not a small tweak, its rather radical but... It would be interesting if besides Bushido, Japan got its revenues from trade switched around, internal trade yields gold, external yields food/prod. giving you real reasons to stay isolationistic in terms of trade, and use your military machine to keep on expanding that internal economy. I think it would make for a really interesting warmongerer, even more under Autocracy.

As for Rome, as I said, I like their UA, but its rather plain. maybe something like National Wonders generating +happiness, after all as Rome you will be in good position to build NW before anyone else.