Humankind Feature Focus video #3

[Boris Gudenuf]

@Boris Gudenuf possible, but I think the common quarter is just the „ordinary housing block“ that we see en masse in all of the screenshots.

Possible. But I have been assuming that, as in their previous game Endless Legend, all the Quarters are inside the nominal City Walls, which would make the 'housing block' the Farm Quarter which appears to be the Quarter for Population Increase, or Housing in Civ VI terms. For one thing, I haven't seen more than 10% of the Quarters as the "Building and Park" type we are speculating about, and that seems a very tiny percentage to devote to Basic Housing or Food Supply - especially in Ancient to Medieval Cities, which is most of what we've seen in the videos/still shots so far.

It is certainly possible, since they haven't said one way or the other, that the Farm Quarter is not an Internal City quarter at all, but the area next to but outside of the City perimeter which shows graphically (at least in many Early Game cities shown so far) as a bunch of farms. That would make sense (better sense than Farm = Housing in fact) except that the farm graphic only shows in open country - forests and 'bad farming' terrain shows as more isolated buildings and no cultivated fields at all, so what are they?

I confess, I'm speculating, based on Amplitude's previous game design, and that's dangerous: we have to assume that they are not going to simply copy mechanisms that worked before, even if they worked well: they are trying to make a Historical 4X here, not another Fantasy 4X. Among other things, that is going to require a much more drastic progression of city size and internal organization between Beginning of Game and End of game 6000 + years later.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So many quarters. And you can have several of them. Or of some of them. How frikin big will a single city be? Will that still be manageable? Or will a city fill out a whole territory at one point? Will there not be "rural" areas?

Well, one of the very first shots they released showed what appeared to be a single massive city covering the land on both sides of a strait - sort of like modern Istanbul, in fact. That implied to me that by the Late Game, at least, Humankind's cities could be as big as the Megalopolitan 10,000,000 Plus population cities in the world now. Given that the company doing the game is based in Paris, and the 'city' of Paris covers about 100 square kilometers while the Metropolitan Area of Paris covers 2300 square kilometers, they have, you might say, an example of City Sprawl to and beyond the horizon all around them.

 

[DST1348]

While talking about city sizes: do we know if there will be some in-game population counter? Up to Civ4, the city screen used to display the number of people living in a city, e.g. 1000 in a city of size 2. I found this very immersive and miss this from Civ5 onward.

 

[SagarRathore]

It's funny how the nomenclature changes. When I was taking Archeology courses at University back in the Atomic Era, Mohenjo-Daro was the site referenced whenever we talked about the Indus Valley Civilization. Now it's Harappa or the civilization as a whole.

Which brings up another thought: given that entirely different families of languages have been spoken in the region since the Indus Valley Civilization disappeared, and we still haven't deciphered any of the Indus script, what is the game going to do for a Harappan City List? Like Greece, are there a bunch of city/village names in the area that predate the current languages and can be used, or, as for the Olmecs, are they (and we) going to be largely Flying Blind?

Forget about city /village name,we don't have any pre-Aryan(Sanskrit) name for rivers in the region.Considering river names are more conservative especially long one,it will be impossible to find cities name

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Also, as the roman city in the video (triumphal arch EQ?) suggests, even the "specialized" quarters can be built multiple times in a city. Looking forward to see how this all works when the time comes.

It's a Trades Quarter (as in "Professions"), not a Trade Quarter. Jkchart has the right idea:

So is trades quarter a collection of workshops and artisans to increase industry by chance? You have a market quarter so I think that would be the big economic quarter, if I'm not wrong.

Also, as the roman city in the video (triumphal arch EQ?) suggests, even the "specialized" quarters can be built multiple times in a city. Looking forward to see how this all works when the time comes.

Pretty much all Quarters are "specialized" in some form. But there's a soft-cap to how many you can build.

@Catoninetales_Amplitude Shaping up great! Some questions, of course:

- What's the benefit of a city "absorbing" a territory vs building another city?
- Is there a limit on the number of territories a city can absorb?
- Can you build resource extractors on outposts? Or it's just "I claimed this place" thing until you build a city?
- Can you merge cities in the late game?

In general, I love how it is. Something that was always bad in Civ was the optimal strategy was to build cities everywhere, in every little space, and you end up with 40 cities to manage, with the late game becoming a drag. I kinda wish this is something like you always have a more or less "constant" number of cities, around 8-10, since as time goes on you can "merge" smaller ones into the bigger ones, and have them all be important.

- The benefit of absorbing it is that you can start properly developing that territory, wheras the options you have with an outpost are severely limited.
- There's a soft-cap.
- Yes, but that's just about the only development you can do with outposts (Some exceptions apply)
- As far as I recall, yes.

Keeping the number of individual cities to manage small is definitely one of the benefits.

I wonder if having a culture that is "Aesthete" relates to them being artistically inclined

Generally yes, but we're not ready to dive into the details of those systems yet.

I guess the commons quarter is like the borough in EL. So it does not increase population, but population lets you build a new quarter. As large as the cites seem to be in Humankind, without the 2 pop per common quarter requirement though. The benefit would be resources from neighboring tiles.

Yes, population numbers are part of the soft-cap on the number of Quarters you can build. And I confess that many of the shots we are using in these trailers are the result of specifically focusing on building a large city. We are of course still tweaking numbers, but depending on your strategy the size of your city will probably vary.

How many hexes in each territory?

I never counted, so all I can say is "enough".

 

[Elhoim]

How many hexes in each territory?

Around 40 from what I could count, and around 50 for coastal. The game would probably have a setting like in Endless Legend which can make the territories bigger or smaller.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

View attachment 549153

Around 40 from what I could count, and around 50 for coastal. The game would probably have a setting like in Endless Legend which can make the territories bigger or smaller.

This means that your initial City/Outpost has between 39 and 49 tiles to 'work'. Probably takes a certain technology level to work coastal/ocean tiles at all, but that still leaves room for some amount of Resources in each territory. From the screenshots shown so far, though, there will be extreme variation in the 'productivity' or desirability for development of individual territories.
Also, how much do individual Factional attributes contribute to their ability to 'work' a territory?
For instance, can a Farmer Faction simply get Food more easily from a territory, or can they feed a city where another type of Faction's city would starve? Can any Faction extract Resources more easily than another? In other words, how much do the Faction attributes/Emblematics affect the terrain/territories and their ability to use them?

The size of the territories also makes obvious the Advantages of merging territories for a single city: the change from 39 to 79 or so tiles to 'feed' a city with Food, Production, etc. could be Huge. Potentially, among other things, doubling the Production of a city makes it that much easier to build structures/Improvements that increase other 'outputs' , which builds up the city even more. I can foresee where Humankind is designed to produce the Mega-Cities or massive Capitals so common in Europe: a London that dominates the English, a Paris that dominates the French, a Vienna that dominates the Austrian, an Istanbul that 'wags' the rest of the Ottoman Faction.

So, Fame Points for victory from having the largest, most productive, producing the most Science or 'Culture' or 'Religion' City?

 

[Siptah]

If Humankind is as fond of percentage modifiers or extra yield per tile from buildings as EL is, there is a huge reason to go for large cities that spawn multiple territories.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

This means that your initial City/Outpost has between 39 and 49 tiles to 'work'. Probably takes a certain technology level to work coastal/ocean tiles at all, but that still leaves room for some amount of Resources in each territory. From the screenshots shown so far, though, there will be extreme variation in the 'productivity' or desirability for development of individual territories.

Keep in mind that it would take a lot of effort to work all those tiles, as your Quarters only work their own and adjacent tiles. Even with ideal single-line placement, that's 13 Quarters to work 40 tiles. Some of the cities we showed in screenshots and Feature Focus videos probably had around that many districts, and you could see how much unworked territory was left, because grabbing 3 new tiles is often not the best placement.

 

[Jkchart]

Keep in mind that it would take a lot of effort to work all those tiles, as your Quarters only work their own and adjacent tiles. Even with ideal single-line placement, that's 13 Quarters to work 40 tiles. Some of the cities we showed in screenshots and Feature Focus videos probably had around that many districts, and you could see how much unworked territory was left, because grabbing 3 new tiles is often not the best placement.

So this might be relevant: will (EDIT) quarters have leveling similar to EL?

 

[Elhoim]

Keep in mind that it would take a lot of effort to work all those tiles, as your Quarters only work their own and adjacent tiles. Even with ideal single-line placement, that's 13 Quarters to work 40 tiles. Some of the cities we showed in screenshots and Feature Focus videos probably had around that many districts, and you could see how much unworked territory was left, because grabbing 3 new tiles is often not the best placement.

Quarters have to be adjacent to each other, or you can place some of them separate from the city? You can work more tiles, but maybe lose some adjacency bonus?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Quarters have to be adjacent to each other, or you can place some of them separate from the city? You can work more tiles, but maybe lose some adjacency bonus?

I'm pretty sure one of the screen shots showed what looked like a Harbor separate from a city, and one showed a sort of 'castle' separate from the city, but that might have been a Defensive Improvement like the 'Forts' in Civ VI.
- For that matter, the "Harbor" might have been some kind of Improvement to 'extract' Fish or a coastal resource (like Civ VI's Turtles, Crabs, Pearls, etc)

 

[Elhoim]

I'm pretty sure one of the screen shots showed what looked like a Harbor separate from a city, and one showed a sort of 'castle' separate from the city, but that might have been a Defensive Improvement like the 'Forts' in Civ VI.
- For that matter, the "Harbor" might have been some kind of Improvement to 'extract' Fish or a coastal resource (like Civ VI's Turtles, Crabs, Pearls, etc)

Yeah, saw them as well. Thinking if they are just extractors, or especial quarters. Maybe some of them have that especial "ability" in which they can be built apart from other quarters.

Roads are probably automatic like in EL... Hopefully you can have some control over them.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

So this might be relevant: will (EDIT) quarters have leveling similar to EL?

There are adjacency bonuses, but I don't recall any threshold-based leveling like in Endless Legend.

Quarters have to be adjacent to each other, or you can place some of them separate from the city? You can work more tiles, but maybe lose some adjacency bonus?

Some quarters like harbors or (if I recall correctly) Defense Quarters can be placed separately, but these Quarters won't necessarily exploit the resources around them.

Also, to answer your other question: Yes, roads are automatic.

 

[OneWorld]

View attachment 549153

Around 40 from what I could count, and around 50 for coastal. The game would probably have a setting like in Endless Legend which can make the territories bigger or smaller.

Great shot, this territory map! Sadly the terriotory boundrays did not match with the rivers very well, which leads to strange splitted areas like in the rivers straight above the quotation of "and bring". This looks quite unreal - even if I understand that it's harder to have smooth boundrays in theses cases when the rives is flowing through the hex...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Great shot, this territory map! Sadly the terriotory boundrays did not match with the rivers very well, which leads to strange splitted areas like in the rivers straight above the quotation of "and bring". This looks quite unreal - even if I understand that it's harder to have smooth boundrays in theses cases when the rives is flowing through the hex...

Quick lesson from my sister, who has her PhD in Population Geography - or as she puts it: Why are people where they are on the Map.
Rivers are great political Borders, but lousy population boundaries, because rivers are avenues of travel, trade, commerce, etc, and people live on both sides of the river to take advantage of that. Best historical example: The Rhine, which has had mostly Germans but occasionally French or Pre-French (Celts) living on both sides of it since the Neolithic, at least. Governments of both German and French political units might like it as an obvious physical sign of a border, but that's not where their people were - ever.

Therefore, if a 'territory' in the game is supposed to represent which areas have your people in them instead of somebody Else's, rivers should have almost nothing to do with the boundaries. IF the territories are supposed to represent Political Borders, then rivers will be used a lot, and result in serious and military arguments over the Borders throughout history. Since Humankind's rivers appear to all be through the middle of tiles, I suspect they are intended to represent where the population is - both sides of the river - and not where a Political Border is.

Next question that springs to mind and keyboard is how much rivers in Humankind will affect movement and Trade - they were always great ways to get somewhere fast by canoe, raft, or boat, and the best way to carry cargoes and the only way to carry Bulk Cargo efficiently until the railroad.

 

[mitsho]

I can confirm that for the Rhine valley, in my city we also have more in common with our French and German neighbours than with the other Swiss. It just makes sense that a River valley develops a common cultural entity, most often seen in Cuisine as Languages can clash and Political borders can impose other differences.

It also is better gameplay-wise, no? That should be the main concern by the way. And by having rivers be on tiles, movement bonuses are quite easy to model. However, the "two armies face each other across a river"-effect civilization has kinda falls away. And that offers some strategic depth. So it's always pros and cons, just saying.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I can confirm that for the Rhine valley, in my city we also have more in common with our French and German neighbours than with the other Swiss. It just makes sense that a River valley develops a common cultural entity, most often seen in Cuisine as Languages can clash and Political borders can impose other differences.

It also is better gameplay-wise, no? That should be the main concern by the way. And by having rivers be on tiles, movement bonuses are quite easy to model. However, the "two armies face each other across a river"-effect civilization has kinda falls away. And that offers some strategic depth. So it's always pros and cons, just saying.

I spent over 5 years in Wiesbaden, a "German' city on the Rhine that has been attracting folks from across the river since about 50 BCE: the German tribe that originally lived the (the Matti or Mattiaci) found out that the Romans across the river (2 Legions, at Mantiacum or modern Mainz) really liked hot mineral baths, which is exactly what they had (Wiesbaden = 'bath in the meadow') so they, basically, set up a Tourist Site and for the next 400 years played hosts to lots of Roman soldiers on holiday, traders, businessmen, travelers - and made out like bandits, winding up in the 5th century CE being incorporated as a Roman city (the stone part of the old City Gate is still there).

So, yeah, I learned a little bit about the Rhine as a Non Barrier!

Since Humankind uses a Tactical Map for battles that supposedly is an expansion from the Game Map, I would think the river would be easily shown: when the tactical Map comes up, if they came from different directions the two armies' Starting Positions would be on opposite sides.
That would be my interpretation of the Combat System as described and the (rough) way it worked in Endless Legend, Amplitude's previous Fantasy game. Since they haven't actually released any details of the combat/Tactical Map system, though, it's all Speculation at this point.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I spent over 5 years in Wiesbaden, a "German' city on the Rhine that has been attracting folks from across the river since about 50 BCE: the German tribe that originally lived the (the Matti or Mattiaci) found out that the Romans across the river (2 Legions, at Mantiacum or modern Mainz) really liked hot mineral baths, which is exactly what they had (Wiesbaden = 'bath in the meadow') so they, basically, set up a Tourist Site and for the next 400 years played hosts to lots of Roman soldiers on holiday, traders, businessmen, travelers - and made out like bandits, winding up in the 5th century CE being incorporated as a Roman city (the stone part of the old City Gate is still there).

So, yeah, I learned a little bit about the Rhine as a Non Barrier!

Since Humankind uses a Tactical Map for battles that supposedly is an expansion from the Game Map, I would think the river would be easily shown: when the tactical Map comes up, if they came from different directions the two armies' Starting Positions would be on opposite sides.
That would be my interpretation of the Combat System as described and the (rough) way it worked in Endless Legend, Amplitude's previous Fantasy game. Since they haven't actually released any details of the combat/Tactical Map system, though, it's all Speculation at this point.

My army on my side of the river, your army on your side of the river sounds like a great way to have no battle at all … unless one treats as a battle my troops counting up the number of your soldiers and then high-tailing it out of there as you're fording the river. If the numbers tally to anywhere close, the discussion's going to be more along the lines of "where should we fight? not here, obviously, this river's just going to muck everything up". That changes somewhere around the Napoleonic era, obviously, when battles become more continual and fluid as opposed to set pieces. Will be interesting to see how HK adapts in the later eras where fighting becomes more and more constant along the fronts as opposed to maneuvering for a position where both sides are willing to fight, followed by a one-day battle.

 

[OneWorld]

Therefore, if a 'territory' in the game is supposed to represent which areas have your people in them instead of somebody Else's, rivers should have almost nothing to do with the boundaries. IF the territories are supposed to represent Political Borders, then rivers will be used a lot, and result in serious and military arguments over the Borders throughout history. Since Humankind's rivers appear to all be through the middle of tiles, I suspect they are intended to represent where the population is - both sides of the river - and not where a Political Border is.

Well, while this is true, isn't it likely that people live in the marked areas on the map - and only at these areas on both sides of the river? I would really like seeing this approach in a game, but with non-overlapping territories I don't see any possibility to shape the real-life settlements as you described...

And if there are more political boarders, the marked areas on the map are still looking very strange to me...