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Humankind Game by Amplitude

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by AtlantisAuthor, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Safe91

    Safe91 Chieftain

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  2. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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  3. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Tried to map out the Lucy Opendev Civics from all the information I can gather (again I'm not on Discord so I don't know if people there had already figured it out):

    Spoiler :
    1271140_20201227212750_1.png
     
  4. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    So... There are 16 Tuesdays until release (I may have miscounted).
    How about resuming the culture card reveals tomorrow?
    There are enough other things to show once they are finished, I assume, and Amplitude probably doesn't want to wait with showing the USA card until the day before release...

    I'm also curious for a post about which feedback from the Lucy OpenDev will be considered and what changes we'll see in mechanics/yields to counter the balancing and snowball problems that so many players found.
     
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  5. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    My previous guess is they will do the Contemporary reveal after the holiday season, so it shall be this week or 2 or 3 following weeks.
     
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  6. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I wanted to express my opinion on a different subject.

    Why on Earth are Byzantine not Aestethe? They would be the perfect medieval culture for that focus. And we already have merchant focus for this age, Ghanaians. And we have zero medieval aestethes.

    Like, for real. Byzantium was incredibly influential in art, architecture, literatuee and so on. Icons and Orthodox Christian art across the world are basically built by Byzantines. Haghia Sophia is one of the greatest monuments of all time. Byzantine art and culture had formative influence on the entire global Islamic art. And it had a lot of impact on Latin Europe, Italy and Renaissance as well.

    The most common concept attached to the word "Byzantine" nowadays is either some pejorative nonsense or something referring to art. Yes, Byzantium was economic suprpower as well, but you don't think of trade first when you think of Byzantium. You think of its cultural legacy, military struggle, or you weep for lost Rome.

    And now we have lost that opportunity and we have two merchants in the medieval era, zero aestethes, a ton of alternate Merchant empires and not so many ideas about alternate Aestethe empires.

    What would you think about changing Byzantine focus from Merchant to Aestethe?...
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  7. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    They could change old designs as they release expansions. Maybe they wanted there to be a dearth of Aesthete in Medieval, but with expansions they will add more cultures and thus 1 out of, say, 14 isn't so crazy. Then they may change Byzantium to be Aesthete and give them different bonuses, while someone else has a similar Merchant ability.

    I look forward to the Artist Workshop being given to Florence =)
     
  8. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    The devs stated in a G2G thread after Byzantium came out to explain the decision.



    Personally, you have my empathy; I my mind I was expecting Aesthete Byzantium, Aesthete Aztec (it's not like they were just warriors who loved to do human sacrifice), Aesthete Joseon (scientific Joseon is very much a cliché from civ series, unless the devs are filling up the Scientists quota per era), and Builder Ming (not to say that Teahouse was not really a Ming thing, I sometimes thought devs didn't found an expert on pre-modern China, considering other small mistakes in Zhou design).

    However, at least for Byzantium, I can accept a Merchant, and in general, these cultural designs are writings on the wall anyway - I personally don't argue against fait accompli.

    It is also very likely that a DLC culture will be Medieval Aesthete (Tang China? Song China? Heian Japan? Abbasids? Florentines/Lombards?).
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    For the love of God, please no third Aestethe China... Or fourth East Asian Aestethe culture, this part of the world has so much more to offer :p

    Abbasids should honestly be a scientific culture even more than Umayyads. I have almost said this probably won't happen to not repeat scientific Arabs, but they I have realized East Asian fixation with aestethics and African with trade. :p

    Aestethe Tuscany (Florence) could happen in the medieval age. After all, two of three waves of Italian renaissance happened in the medieval era (one of many reasons why 'renaissance era' is terrible name). Although honestly I'd make Aestethe Tuscany early modern and Merchant Venice medieval... Damn, again I got tastes opposite to devs :p

    Bagan (Burma) and Medang (Java) should be Builders, not Aestethe.

    Another possibilities for the medieval aestethe could be (free, democratic) Tibet, some Indian empire, some African or Andean culture, Georgia, Armenia, or honestly any major Islamic empire (although I'd really prefer Abbasids in particular to be scientist). Castille/Leon/Aragon could also work. Medieval Irish would be an awesome medieval Aestethe.

    Wait, did I just refute my own point about the lack of medieval aestethes? Oh well.

    Maybe mercantile focus was given to Byz to better represent their splendour, majesty, and the ability of od diplomacy to bribe everybody against each other all the time and find the furthest medieval allies possible.
     
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  10. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    Well for Byzantines, it's not a real mistake. I am a lot into Byzantine history, and we could simply say than like a lot of cultures, they could fit multiple legit affinities. They are equally perfect Aesthete and Merchant candidates. Even Scientist fit them well, for all their innovations into warfare, architecture, litterature, phylosophy. They influenced all the middle eastern world, which later, after the fall of byzantium, were the major keeper of their knowledges.

    The biggest pro argument for Aesthete Byzantines is for sure the missing aesthete affinity in medieval era. And they were probably the best "european" culture to take this role. Even if I have no worry than there is good aesthete candidates from other part of the world, to fit the job for medieval Era one day.

    The con argument is more important imo : their gameplay.
    Varangian Guards is legitimately a strong unit, which help you to work on your alliances. So you don't look weak to your opponents but in same time you don't try to be an unstoppable conquerors because you need alliances : for their Merchant ability AND for the quarter (having more horses) and the LT (more money per alliance)

    For Aesthete Aztecs, I rather disagree. I mean, we need militarist cultures in the game, we can't just soften, and make everyone being aesthete / merchant / agrarian or scientist.
    Warriors were important in Aztecs culture, they are iconic and famous, they subjugated all their opponents in their region (until the europeans arrival obv).
    Mesoamerican history is so interesting, a lot of these cultures could be aesthete, builder, agragrian, scientist, expansionist... Having one militarist for this part of the world, don't look scandalous to me.
    For me, the Sacrificial part is a really important thing of history of cultures, really interesting with the context of the beliefs, even sometimes with some form of "beauty". BUT it's something which belong to a lot of cultures, in diverse part of the world, and diverse periods.
    I would have prefered than it was a generic mechanic, and not especially tied to Aztecs.

    Well for the rest, I agree, Joseon is a "cliché" arleady discussed a lot on the discord. I was surprised at Ming reveal, to have another Aesthete Chinese culture. And we discussed about the Zhou innacurate details.

    For another Medieval Aesthete, I like the idea of Medieval Irish, their scholar are famous, and the Gallowglass could be a cool emblematic unit which refer to the history of both Scottish and Irish. Aesthete sounds good with them, but in term of gameplay, I'm not sure, because the affinity is about culture bomb/fabricating cultural grievances / money with your influence. So I don't know enough about Irish History to know if the affinity gameplay fit but sounds cool.

    I hope having a Scientist Medieval Chinese culture (Tang or Song) honestly, to reach gunpowder tech before everyone else, sounds fun and legit to me, but I'm not an expert about them.
    Abbasids will maybe happen one day. But I hope to see the other iconic islamic cultures of the period before them : Mamluks, Seljuks, etc. Or some original choices, the Fatimides to highlight Berber culture and lineage ?
    Lombard would be a really interesting choice, they took most of Italy, fighted Byzantines, were subjugated by Franks, ... Could be an interesting lineage from Goth -> Lombard -> Venetians.

    I think you resumed perfectly Byzantine design in Humankind Krajzen. And I agree than if Abbasids happens one day, it would be probably as Scientist, not Aesthete, even if Ummayads already got this role.

    Tuscans could work in medieval, but I think than a lot of poeple will find odd to not have them in Early Modern and it will be easier to design them in this period. Just for having diverse city names of their greater extend, or having a sort of Italy wars with Venetians. Renaissance fortress tech is in early modern too. Santa Maria Del Fiore is a given for a wonderful Early Modern wonder.
    In term of warfare, mixing an emblematic condottiere with gunpowders units, mortar, arquebusiers, halberdiers, just look way better in term of flavor to me.
    I mean, in medieval, they fit more the role of an IPs / city state. IMO, there is already great entities, which were really influencial and ruled a great part of italy to highlight in this period: the Lombards, Naples, the Sicilio-Normans.
    I would love to make an "embrace the Renaissance" lineage. Going from Franks to Tuscans to French for exemple, looks really nice to me.

    Some Indian dynasty could fit the job for sure. Same for some African or Andean cultures. Georgian or Armenians would be a bit weird as medieval Aesthete I think. I mean, they were heavy influenced and vassalized by Byz, even if cultural influence are interwined (btw they influenced Byz too, it goes in both way), but, I don't know, Georgians are more iconic in this period for their "reconquista" when Seljuks weakened Byzantine Empire. And face to a common threat, Armenians and Byz worked together to protect their frontiers. (so Armenians were sort of frontiers guards OR tried to become independant depending the period). I hope having Classical Armenians instead. Amernians to Byzantines looks like a really legit and interesting run.

    We definitly need one day to have another islamic culture in medieval era (atleast, I'm hoping for). But I don't know who would be a good aesthete candidate tbh
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
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  11. SagarRathore

    SagarRathore Chieftain

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    On similar lines, I believe Mauryans should be Expansionist. Ofcourse they went for Aesthete because of Persia,Rome.
    But tbh Expansionist is way more fitting for Mauryans.
    Thou there was some developments during Mauryan Period like Stone replacing wood in Architecture.Stupa,Religion & all but so was the case in pre-Mauryan & Post Mauryan Era. In fact period Post Mauryan Period(200 BCE to 200 AD) mark significant Inovations, & even more religio-cultural developments.
    Thou there is increase in religio-cultural Interactions,spread of ideas,Art during Mauryan Period but that happened due to their large Expansion from border of Bactria to Bengal.
    Moreover,if we get Guptas in DLC (which I really want to happen) then I don't see anyother focus except Aesthete for them. So to have Aesthete Maurya really messes up chronology of Indian factions for future DLC.
     
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I mean, we are likely to have two Koreas and I can guarantee they're both Scientist. :p Maybe in an expansion we can get Aesthete Silla and Scientific Tang/Song to balance things out... :p
     
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  13. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Probably no culture reveal today, but a nice animation instead: https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1346501927027273730

    @SagarRathore as Mauryans and Guptas would have to be contemporary in Humankind, chronology of Indian factions is damned to be messed up anyway. I personally hope for Chola as medieval Indian faction in the future to give Southern India some love.
     
  14. SagarRathore

    SagarRathore Chieftain

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    I know with both falling in Humankind Classical Era,chances r very low. Thou I really hope they listen to @Krajzen suggestions & break or tweak Medieval/Classical Era. Not only it would help India's case but also Persia with Achaemenid & Sassanid Case.

    I was hoping to get Chola in Vanilla only,but finger-cross for DLC.
     
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  15. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Most cultures that were significant enough for us to know about will obviously have technology on their side, will have developed a unique culture, will have been stable enough to perform trade and expansion, will have had a sizeable population that built huge cities and wonders, and will have certainly had major wars. You could make an argument for any culture being any affinity.

    So the arguments should really fall under 2 categories: is this culture known more for X affinity than most cultures, and is there another option that fits X affinity even better?
     
  16. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Late to the party, so warnings for a series of scattered comments:

    Considering that the Venetian EU (Galleass) is an explicit reference to the Battle of Lepanto (1571), I can see why the devs put Venice into Early Modern - Venice was the only Merchant Republic of High Middle Ages that still had a seat on the international stage after Columbus indirectly crippled the Mediterranean trade routes.

    Medieval Tibet/Tufan/Tubot was widely known for their military strength. Trisong Detsen's army conquered all of the Tarim Basin, marched onto Chang'an and forced Tang Emperor to move his capital elsewhere. Few non-steppe civilization could achieve that.

    As with my talks with you earlier, I can accept a Ming Teahouse since it served as a representative of the Ming urban culture. Still, Builder Ming could be a more thematic choice.

    It's not culture bombs, but Irish monks in early Medieval pretty much re-feed the European continent religiously and culturally.

    If trying to find a Scientist Chinese culture, then probably Song. They developed astronomical computers, Greek-fire-like incendiary weapons, reformed the steel technology, and was the first among the world to use coal as a fuel.
    (Interestingly, the famous "Bi Sheng movable typefaces" was actually not popularized in Song, due to the fact that movable typefaces were expensive and the books they printed were not very good-looking. The Song people stick to woodblocks instead.)

    As @Zaarin said, I think a Scientist Song with an Aesthetic Silla would work; or even a Builder Heian Japan (cf. Heian-Kyo, the Phoenix Hall of Byodo-in, Horyu-ji's reconstructions, etc). Design an EQ for a Scientific Song will be hard though, because the most famous institution of Song was Confucian Academies or 書院, and we already have two such Academies (Zhou and Joseon EQs).

    If following the usual periodization, the apex of Florence was right at the beginning Early Modern Era - Santa Maria del Fiore was completed in 1436, and the "Magnificent" Lorenzo de' Medici coincidentally died in 1492. I would say the "Italian Renaissance" was the swan song of High Medieval and the debut of Early Modern at the same time, so the Italian city-states can go both ways.

    Chola can open up so much possibilities, as their rivals include Srivijaya (great trader and naval power) and Anuradhapura (renowned engineer), not to say that Srivijaya's position was later inherited by Majapahit (even greater trader and naval power).
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  17. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    #random_annoying_nitpicking

    I am slightly disappointed devs went for Umayyads instead of Abbasids as an Obligatory Medieval Islamic Faction. Abbasids were even more scientifically accomplished and should be the ultimate scientific Islamic culture (as well as the ultimate scientist of medieval era, next to Song and maybe some Indian culture). It is them who have really started the deal with medieval Islam being incredibly innovative in philosophy and science.

    I also like them much more. Let me quickly describe you the short history of both dynasties, and I think you will understand why.
    Spoiler :

    Umayyads were the second Islamic caliphate after short living Rashidun, lasting 90 years (661 - 750), and they were very expansionist. During their 'tenure' they have conquered Maghreb, Hispania, a part of Central Asia and southern Pakistan; they have been also barely repulsed from Frankish realm and Constantinople. They did a lot of good civilizaiton job in administration, military, economy, early Muslim urban centers, and so on; the great process of translating other cultures philosophy and science to Arabic has also begun under their rule. Still, the dynasty has been pretty infamously hardcore Arabic in nature. Non - Arabs (yes, even those converted to Islam) were a sort of second class citizens in the empire. It was mainly this issue which caused the excellently organised Abbasid Revolution, during which a coalition of non - Arabic Muslims, non - Muslims and Islamic persecuted sects has overthrown Umayyads in favour of much more multicultural, egalitarian Caliphate. The last Umayyad prince has managed to escape to Spain and found Emirate (later Caliphate) of Cordoba, which is I guess what Scientist trait in game refers to, as Umayyads have honestly done zero scientific achievements before their exodus to Spain; only then they have started their intellectual adventures.

    Still, the first steps in the development of science and falsafa were done on the Abbasid court, in Baghdad, in huge part due to the fact the new dynasty was very heavily Persianized (and multicultural in general) and open to input from the old Sassanid Empire, India, Greeks, other cultures in general. It was after Abbasid takeover when you can really talk about first Islamic "scientists" (not religious scholars, poets, historians etc). It was Abbasids who have already in 9th century reached incredible intellectual heights, which make Carolingian Renaissance look like a children's toy.


    To sum up, I consider Abbasids to be slightly more worthy of both the Scientist trait and as a slot for Obligatory Medieval Islamic Civilization. They have also lasted much longer than Umayyads. They are also not as exlusively Arabic and more of a hybrid of Arabic, Iranian and other peoples, and could be viewed as a heir to Persian culture in a way Umayyads can't.

    I honestly think that the reason Umayyads got in was the fact they had much more dramatic interactions with other ingame cultures, and it seems to me this is very important factor in who goes in. Abbasids had friendly relations with Franks and very stable border with Byzantium (their relations varied from wars to friendship), and that's it. Umayyads meanwhile have been dramatically fighting the rest of Byzantine empire, including dramatic siege of Constantinople, conquered Spain from Goths, invaded Franks and were famously repulsed by Charles Martel, were fighting Norse attacks in Spain, fought Tang China in Central Asia, tried to conquer Nubia, were quelling last Persian rebels and remnants in the east... And they also sort of cover both Middle East and Islamic Spain.

    Still, I'd love Abbasids slightly more. Oh well, I guess I should be thankful I live in the era which recognizes Islamic scientific achievements, not just 'conquests focus ' and 'caravan trade focus', and which doesn't name them just 'Arabs', 'Moors' or (the horror) 'Saracens' :p
     
  18. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Basically agree. Abbasids clearly fit the Scientific theme more, Umayyads were largely Expansionists.

    Besides Franks and Byzantines, Abbasids also interacted with Mongolians, another Medieval culture, as well (by being destroyed by Mongols that is).

    Personally I can't guess why the devs went to Umayyads but not Abbasids - they can just change the name from "Umayyads" into "Abbasids" and the LT, EU, and EQ still stands.

    IMHO the devs might bring Abbasids back in a DLC or something as it is far more famous.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
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  19. Narcisse

    Narcisse Prince

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    I don't think than just renaming them work anyway. The CC and EQ are Ummayads architectures for exemple.

    I guess than they went for Scientist Ummayads instead of expansionist because Cordoba flavor (with potential lineage to Spanish) is encompassed in their design

    They can always add Abbasids one day, more culture is the better if possible :p
     
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  20. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Haras was a military unit existed in both Umayyad and Abbasid, and *if we don't consider the in-game model*, Abbasid architecture is basically Umayyad architecture blends with Sasanian architecture, while Umayyad architecture itself is already heavily based on Sasanian and Byzantine influences. There are many continuities between these two dynasties in terms of the concept behind EU and EQ.
     

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