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Humankind Game by Amplitude

Discussion in 'Humankind by Amplitude' started by AtlantisAuthor, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    Well yes, there is a clear continuity between Ummayads and Abbasids (it's why I think than Ummayads are decent scientist and aesthete, as equivalent than expansionist).
    But no, in term of architectures, the references in Humankind are really well detailed.

    The Ummayads City Center is based one of the oldest remaining Ummayad Palace, the Ummayad Palace of Jabal al-Qal'a, Amman, Jordan. Which is largely ruined today.
    And the EQ is based on The Umayyad Mosque (literally the name of the mosque is than it is the Mosque of Ummayads‎), also known as the Great Mosque of Damascus.

    So only renaming them will be really wacky. Because it don't have any Abassids flavors, and don't show any of their great achievements. I mean, poeple will just said "Why Abassids have two Ummayads buildings, wtf".
    At this point, they don't deserve this sort of mix match, but having their own design, with the Minaret of Samarra for exemple. Honestly, they have enough splendors to show.

    And in term of warfare, Ummayads basically based their armies structures and equipements on Greeks (like they called Byzantines). You can show a lot of other things with Abassids, their warfare is rather diverse and well-documented
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  2. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    As I said, "if we don't consider the in-game model...there are many continuities between these two dynasties in terms of the concept behind EU and EQ."

    Specific buildings clearly cannot match. My point is, in terms of architecture style in general, there is a striking continuity. If the devs really want to change Umayyads into Abbasids, they obviously need to do more than name change.

    I mean, you know me, I want to say that to Zhou Confucian Schools as well :deadhorse:; but I'm familiar enough with the game to not care more about it.
     
  3. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    Ah, okay I didn't understand the point, sorry.
    Still, I don't think than removing a culture, to add another one instead is a good option. Some will miss the Ummayads some the Abbasids.
    Even more in a case where both can coexist in the same era without any troubles.
    No replacement, no remove, just more cultures, my dream ^^

    I guess than only the focus and affinity would be switched, if they happen (officially or in a mod).

    I don't know if Abassids are likely to happen one day. Well, it's not me which decide, but the devs and the whole community.
    But we are a bit in a "Ghana-Mali" case. They could have the same gameplay, same type of building, the same unit and bonus, but we got the prior over the later.

    Btw, I'm rather sure I builded Cordoba as Ummayads, I hope to have a wonder related in the game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  4. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Also, speaking of affinities, currently we have this interesting situation: Every single era has exactly one Scientist, no more, no less. My personal guess is, since Scientist can research techs one era ahead, having more than 1 Scientists in a limited pool of 10 cultures will make balancing a lot of harder.

    And, if following this logic, the future DLCs will probably either 1. Adding exactly 1 Scientist for every era as well, for balance; or 2. Adding no more Scientists, still for balance.

    I feel like the devs will go for the 1st possibility, having two Scientists competing and targeting each other is definitely more interesting than having only one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  5. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Alternatively, expansion that add cultures will only add new eras, and shuffle old cultures around to fit into these new eras if appropriate. Other expansions add mechanics only.

    10 Cultures per era is for 10 players. I suppose they could increase to 11 per era to ensure everyone always has a non-transcending choice, but it clearly seems to match the number of players which I doubt will change...
     
  6. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    OR, crazy idea, they can create some sort of counterplay with one of other affinities. For exemple, I always think than Merchant passive could be a bit nerfed if they get a second ability which allow to make something with your huge reserve of money :
    "Steal / Copy" a tech, pay an high price for it, have a cooldown, but you can compete with a scientist which research some next era tech.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
  7. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    I wish we would see this ability, but not for generic merchants, actually. It's pretty much the special ability of the Forgotten in Endless Legend, but as most abilities in that game, it comes with a hefty price tag (no science generation at all), and works well/is interesting precisely because of that. Endless Legend's great abilites & maluses can be partly induced into Humankind for certain factions with care (some don't make sense, such as pops from gold). So far we have only the Hordes that have some of these abilities. It would be partly unjust to the historical model of these factions, but it would be fun to additionally give them the Necrophages' "always at war" trait, as they already have some necrophage traits anyway. Banning science for a civ might not work that well, as it would only apply for one era and you could hardly build a strategy around it if you need science before and afterwards, and the culture might not even be available for you. How would it play and shake up he game though if you deny the Goths or Haudenosaunee (again, partly unjust to the historical model) science generation but give them much stronger technological osmosis that can be sped up with money and spies? Could be outright terrible, but could also be just the right kind of spice that some runs need.
     
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  8. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    All great ideas, though I doubt we will see them.

    I'd be intrigued to have a ancient era nomadic civ, though that might be too unbalanced? But it would seem kinda fitting, continuing to be migratory.
     
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  9. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    An Ancient Era 'pastoral' or migratory Faction would be either Fantasy or Tricky. I was plugging for this, too, until I finished reading a couple of academic books on the recent archeology of Horse Domestication in the past year. Now I can see the problems, and I suspect I know why Humankind doesn't have a Hun-Mongol-type Faction in the Ancient Era since they also have an in-house Historian.

    They have now tracked 'bit wear' - the physical changes to a horse's teeth caused by wear on a cloth, rope, leather, or metal bit between his teeth when he/she is being ridden or driven - back to 3700 BCE: solidly Ancient Era. Problem is, there is no evidence of horses being used in combat for another 2500 - 2800 years! The problem was not with the ridable horse, but with the weaponry. The only bows were self bows that were too long to be easily used on horseback, or stone/copper/bronze maces that required you to swing down and out at someone from horseback and therefore had a much higher chance of pulling you out of your primitive saddle than, say, a straight-ahead thrust with a spear or lance would have. You could throw javelins, but that gave you no advantage over the man on foot throwing javelins, and if he hit your horse (a much larger and easier target than he was) you were on the ground, possibly pinned under your horse, and Not Long For This World.

    It was not until about 1000 - 800 BCE that the composite laminated bow reached the steppe (there are examples of primitive laminated bows from Tut's tomb from about 300 years earlier, but this may be Independent Development: Egypt was and is sadly lacking in decent bow wood, so had a solid reason to develop an Alternative) and right after that, you have the Cimmerians raiding into Anatolia and the Scythians a few hundred years later giving the Anatolian/Mesopotamian States a hard time with mounted archery.

    But that is at the beginning of the Classical Era.
    So, technologically, your classic Steppe Nomad Horse Archer is not an ancient unit at all, and so one of the prime reasons for having a pastoral/nomad Faction has no historical basis for the Ancient Era of the game.

    It could still be done. Once they started riding horses, the first major effect on human populations was that the herding groups (Sredny-Stog, Kura-Araxes, Yamnaya Cultures, for examples) could now move herds and flocks onto the 'high' steppe, away from the rivers, because the herders were more mobile and efficient (a man on horseback can successfully 'herd' and protect up to 4 times more animals than a man on foot), which allowed them to 'colonize' the real steppes. It also meant that instead of permanent camps in the river valleys, they could use horses to move the entire population, following the herds, becoming truely mobile/pastoral for the first time.

    So, there could be a 'nomadic' Faction for the Ancient Era, but the characteristics would be some kind of Outpost Only settlement, and Tech heavily weighted in certain directions: historically, there is strong evidence that the 'pastorals' invented effective saddles and tack for riding, spoke-wheeled chariots, (independently) the composite bow and lost-wax casting of copper and bronze (several horse-using cultures like the Maikop were very, very proficient metal-workers), so some mechanic to allow them to progress technically while not building cities would have to be introduced.
    It's pretty late for that in the development cycle, but would certainly be a possibility for a First Expansion.
     
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  10. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    Were you reading "The Horse, Wheel and Language"? I read that at the beginning of Covid. Fascinating book.
     
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  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Pastoralism doesn't have to rely on horses. E.g., the Iron Age Israelites--and non-coastal Canaanites in general--were transhumance pastoralists, but the Israelites regarded horses as anathema--not quite pig-level anathema, but still as beasts to be regarded with suspicion. On the other hand, the Israelites were not a major regional power, either (or at least the more pastoral Judahites weren't--the more settled Samaritans in the north found due prosperity from being at the crossroads of the east-west and north-south regional trade routes). Iron Age pastoralists wouldn't generally be top choices for inclusion after the fashion of the Scythians, Huns, or Mongols.
     
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  12. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Part of the reason for all that was that the horse was not native to the Near East - it was imported from the north. That's also why the Sumerian "battle carts" were drawn by donkeys instead of horses: the horse simply wasn't available in the area until after about 1700 - 1800 BCE, about the time the spoked wheel chariot also 'spreads' from the steppe to the Near East. (Possibly by way of the Maikop culture in the Caucasus, which did a lot of trading in metal and metalwork with the Mesopotamian societies)
    Something I didn't realize until my recent reading also was that the 'universal' Old World domesticated animals: sheep, horses and cattle, were not Universal at first: three different equids (besides the horse, the other two were either too small to ride or less 'tameable', so they were eaten and became extinct) including the horse were native to the central plains/steppes, but both cattle and sheep were Introduced, while the Horse was not native to either the Near East or India until introduced from the steppes, and in both cases the introduction seems to happen at about the same timet hat the spoked wheel chariot also shows up. I doubt that that was a coincidence.

    That, and also:

    Manco, Jean. Ancestral Journeys
    - which gives a nice summary of the DNA evidence for tracking human migrations from the Paleolithic on into and around Europe and the neighboring landmasses.

    Scott, James C. Against the Grain
    - something of a 'counter argument' on the effectiveness of early agriculture. He basically argues, among other things, that primitive agriculture was not a very reliable source of food - lots of quantity compared to any other method, until only a few years of drought, excess rain, too much heat, insects, etc brought starvation and the abandonment of the settlement/city. Very different view of the 'conventional' equation of Agriculture = Cities which Civ games have used since Civ I.

    Beckwith, Christopher. Empires of the Silk Road
    - one of several books I have perused on the early (1000 BCE - 1000 CE) political and cultural factions of central Asia this last year, which have both reinforced my firm belief that ALL the 4x Historical Games desperately need to find a good way of representing the pastoral/nomadic Empires because they are just too important to leave out any longer, (and major applause to Humankind for at least doing some Different with their Hun and Mongol Factions) but also how complicated the whole problem is, because they weren't the same technically, culturally, or militarily and there was a lot of 'mixed' economies among them: the pastoral City was a real, and really important, thing and pastoral technology was incredibly influential both in situ and to their neighbors on all sides
     
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  13. j51

    j51 Blue Star Cadet

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    That's funny I also read Ancestral Journeys last year and went through a Central Asian history fascination! I read The Tarim Mummies as well and some followup papers by Mallory and Mair. I'm gonna have to check out Empires of the Silk Road.

    Yeah Against the Grain and it's arguments look very interesting.
     
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  14. CivLuvah

    CivLuvah Deity

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    Amplitude Studios is celebrating its 10th anniversary this year, and they're going to have several Humankind streams on this coming Friday, January 22, three months til release date!

    Here is the link below for more info:
    https://www.games2gether.com/amplit...4-amplified-2021-turning-endless-day-up-to-11

    But if you want the Humankind info right away, here are the important start times (in EST) for the Humankind streams:

    9:00 AM EST - Intro to Humankind
    10:00 AM EST - Modding Chat
    11:00 AM to 1:00 PM EST - Humankind Gameplay Stream
     
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  15. TreVor_ish

    TreVor_ish Warlord

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    IDK if anyone is watching the stream, but re:modding, we gonna have modified unity for modding and AI will be fully moddable.
     
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  16. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    Thanks for the reminder, and awesome! I'm ready to watch some gameplay in 5 minutes!
     
  17. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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  18. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Deity

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    The video is talking about using their built-in options for creating an AI for a specific avatar, but did they say the AI will be fully *moddable*?
     
  19. Narcisse

    Narcisse Warlord

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    well, this feature focus video is just about the avatar of players, than we can share between us.

    But there was a stream about modding too, and they said than AI will be modable.
    Someone made a resume on reddit : https://www.reddit.com/r/HumankindTheGame/comments/l2r0lw/modding_news/
    And I guess there is the VOD of the live on youtube or twitch
     
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  20. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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