Humankind Game by Amplitude

AsH2 said:
To this I think we need to consider that trade between the Indus Valley and Middle East were chiefly by proxy (trade networks).
Spoiler from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation#Trade_and_transportation :
There was an extensive maritime trade network operating between the Harappan and Mesopotamian civilisations as early as the middle Harappan Phase, with much commerce being handled by "middlemen merchants from Dilmun" (modern Bahrain and Failaka located in the Persian Gulf).[140]
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ALL long-distance Trade in Ancient to Renaissance Eras was by proxy. That's how the Sogdians made a good living out of the Silk Road network: they were nomads who acted as 'middle men' between China, India, and the Middle East, just as the Kushans had done before them. The individuals that traveled long distance over the trade routes were so few we remember them by name: Zhang Qian, Marco Polo, Hippalus.

AsH2 said:
Of course the indo-european Romans would adopt elements of Han or Mauryan cultures if they were next door - that would be an invitation for conquest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretatio_graeca
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Not true. As an example I just read up on, Buddhism was spread along the Silk Road network from India to China, where it flourished because Taoism, a purely Chinese mindset, was similar to Buddhism in its view of the world and man's place in it. On the other hand, Buddhism never spread west, into Persia, the Middle East or Europe, because their religious mindset was of Opposing Factions of Gods or God-like critters with people as auxiliaries of them. Compared to the Endless cycle without even named Gods of Buddhism, the thought process was just too alien.
Comparatively, the cult of Mithra spread easily from Persia into the Roman Empire, because the two mindsets were so similar: a Hero God with attributes you can admire and emulate (originally , in Zoroastrianism, Mithra was the minor God of Contracts and Truth-Telling: bth aspects that appealed to men who aspired to the 'my word is my bond' title and merchants who have to rely on a degree of honesty to deal at all)

There's a reason why, right down to the 19th and early 20t centuries, the Chinese were 'inscrutable Orientals' in the popular European view, and the term "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet" is one of Kipling's most-remembered lines: it felt right to European readers - and Indian or Chinese readers, had they access to a translation.

AsH2 said:
Yes, I think such concept would better fit in civ6, where we all rule empires from a similar seat like Sauron in Mordor - citizens are obeying minions we've created.
Actually, I think a humankind concept is missing in Civ and yet I've not seen much of it in the preview of this game. It's closer to a Civ ripoff than actually showing any humankind aspect.
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I would like to argue that point, but I don't think we have enough information to make any intelligent statements about it: like the blind men and the elephant, whatever we say will say more about what we want and hope to see and in all likelihood be only a small part of what they are actually designing and planning to market.

I have argued that looking at their earlier games, like Endless Space 2 and Endless Legend should tell us something about Humankind, but that's not necessarily true: presumably, had they planned a Historical Version of either of the 'Endless' games, it would have been tagged Endless Empires or Endless Humanity or Endless History (which last, however, sounds downright Buddhist!)
 
Boris Gudenuf said:
If some game designers wanted a really Iconic oman Civilization Trait, it would be the ability to 'Borrow' or appropriate cultural traits from everybody they came in contact with!
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Stealing the traits of other people? I believe we call that "Horatio."

For a more serious answer: Yes, there will be ways for cultures to influence each other, though not their core traits. We'll reveal more details about that at a later time. (Trust me, I am as tired of saying this as you all are of hearing it.)
 
The Endless games are really good, so I hope that Humankind will be too. Civ is better IMO, because the Endless games dont keep me as interested for as a long period of time. I cant really say why though, its just that "something" that Civ has and no other (bar maybe TW) game franchise have. The main difference, I find, is that Civ games feels more like living places. However, I think the Endless games are more interesting with their asymmetrical races. But then, I never understood why people complain about balanced leaders and civs in Civ either.....
 
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Boris Gudenuf said:
ALL long-distance Trade in Ancient to Renaissance Eras was by proxy. That's how the Sogdians made a good living out of the Silk Road network: they were nomads who acted as 'middle men' between China, India, and the Middle East, just as the Kushans had done before them. The individuals that traveled long distance over the trade routes were so few we remember them by name: Zhang Qian, Marco Polo, Hippalus.
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Yes, I know. That's why I brought it up, because your statement "Since there was trade between the Indus Valley Civilization and the Middle East sin ce 2500 - 2000 BCE, contact didn't;t make a difference: starting point in Concepts did." did not make sense.
Also, what "starting point in Concepts"?
Spoiler from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Vedic_religion :
Vedic religion is now generally accepted to be a predecessor of Hinduism, but they are not the same because the textual evidence suggests significant differences between the two, such as the belief in an afterlife instead of the later developed reincarnation and samsāra concepts.[8]

Not true. As an example I just read up on, Buddhism was spread along the Silk Road network from India to China, where it flourished because Taoism, a purely Chinese mindset, was similar to Buddhism in its view of the world and man's place in it. On the other hand, Buddhism never spread west, into Persia, the Middle East or Europe, because their religious mindset was of Opposing Factions of Gods or God-like critters with people as auxiliaries of them. Compared to the Endless cycle without even named Gods of Buddhism, the thought process was just too alien.
Comparatively, the cult of Mithra spread easily from Persia into the Roman Empire, because the two mindsets were so similar: a Hero God with attributes you can admire and emulate (originally , in Zoroastrianism, Mithra was the minor God of Contracts and Truth-Telling: bth aspects that appealed to men who aspired to the 'my word is my bond' title and merchants who have to rely on a degree of honesty to deal at all)
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What is not true?
First, you suggested a concept about "Factions/Civilizations of the same type: Expansionist, Warmonger, Agricultural, could assimilate, absorb, or 'gain' Civics or Religions or even Techs more easily than between different types of Civs/Factions",
then tried to make a point when claiming "Rome, if next to similar Civs (as they actually were in Europe and the Middle East) could 'grab' all kinds of Culture and Religion and even Technology (chariot tech and linked mail armor from the Celts, Theater, philosophy, and some religious concepts from the Greeks, and eventually Christianity from the Middle East) from their neighbors, but if, say, they were next to the Chinese or Indian (Han or Mauryan?) Civs it would be much harder to borrow anything other than 'hard' technology because Culturally they are just too different",
that neither make sense put together or by themselves - the Roman empire would or would not easily "borrow" from the same type Han empire, even if they were next to each other, while the indo-european Rome did in fact 'grab' from the indo-european (though hardly of "same type") Celts, but also from the not-at-all-indo-european Ancient Greece, Etruscans, and eventually from the Middle East!?!

And again, you're comparing relation of cultures in same area (Persia and Roman Empire) with relation of cultures by proxy (Buddhism spreading west).


There's a reason why, right down to the 19th and early 20t centuries, the Chinese were 'inscrutable Orientals' in the popular European view, and the term "East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet" is one of Kipling's most-remembered lines: it felt right to European readers - and Indian or Chinese readers, had they access to a translation.
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There are way more reasons now to not put much weight in what the popular European view looked like back then, in the 19th and early 20t centuries, and I can't see what sense that would make in a hypothetical neighbouring scenario - the twain shall meet, and the "starting point in Concepts" would not make that much difference.


I would like to argue that point, but I don't think we have enough information to make any intelligent statements about it: like the blind men and the elephant, whatever we say will say more about what we want and hope to see and in all likelihood be only a small part of what they are actually designing and planning to market.

I have argued that looking at their earlier games, like Endless Space 2 and Endless Legend should tell us something about Humankind, but that's not necessarily true: presumably, had they planned a Historical Version of either of the 'Endless' games, it would have been tagged Endless Empires or Endless Humanity or Endless History (which last, however, sounds downright Buddhist!)
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Do not have to argue that point. What they are actually designing and planning to market, do not matter anything what (I've) yet not seen in the preview of this game.
 
Catoninetales_Amplitude said:
. . . For a more serious answer: Yes, there will be ways for cultures to influence each other, though not their core traits. We'll reveal more details about that at a later time. (Trust me, I am as tired of saying this as you all are of hearing it.)
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That ties in with the book I was commenting from: once Core Values are set, it's incredibly hard to change them unless the 'incoming narrative' matches them in some way. Hence, Taoism opened the door, so to speak, for Buddhism to 'enter' the Chinese Core Values, because they shared many concepts.
As a side note, Buddhism had no requirement to make an image of the Buddha, because the message was more important that the individual. But after Buddhism spread to the Sogdian 'middlemen' in central Asia, they had contact with the Bactrian Kingdoms, which had Hellenistic roots (cities founded by Alexander as he passed through) and the Hellenes (Greeks) always made statues, reliefs, paintings, frescos,, etc. of the images of the Gods. That got picked up and spread to Buddhism, which is why Central Asian Buddhists produced the Buddhas of Bamyan and Asia had large statues of the Buddha in temples and shrines from Tibet to Japan.
That was an addition or 'influence' to a Core Religion, but since 'human' imagery was not unknown to the civilizations involved, not really a modification of a Core Value/Trait.
 
AsH2 said:
What is not true?
First, you suggested a concept about "Factions/Civilizations of the same type: Expansionist, Warmonger, Agricultural, could assimilate, absorb, or 'gain' Civics or Religions or even Techs more easily than between different types of Civs/Factions",
then tried to make a point when claiming "Rome, if next to similar Civs (as they actually were in Europe and the Middle East) could 'grab' all kinds of Culture and Religion and even Technology (chariot tech and linked mail armor from the Celts, Theater, philosophy, and some religious concepts from the Greeks, and eventually Christianity from the Middle East) from their neighbors, but if, say, they were next to the Chinese or Indian (Han or Mauryan?) Civs it would be much harder to borrow anything other than 'hard' technology because Culturally they are just too different",
that neither make sense put together or by themselves - the Roman empire would or would not easily "borrow" from the same type Han empire, even if they were next to each other, while the indo-european Rome did in fact 'grab' from the indo-european (though hardly of "same type") Celts, but also from the not-at-all-indo-european Ancient Greece, Etruscans, and eventually from the Middle East!?!
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I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make, and this is probably my fault, but my original point was that Possibly the Humankind game was going to use their 'type' Factions to emulate the historical differences in the way differently-based cultural/political groups could absorb influences from other or similar groups.

As to what Rome borrowed/absorbed from its near or not-so-near neighbors, it absorbed considerable technology from the Celts, but not a lot of cultural attributes, because the Celts were just beginning fo 'urbanize' compared to the Mediterranean 'Civilizations' - the Romans, from their own writings and comments, didn't feel they had anything to learn from the Celts.
They did learn a lot from the Greeks who, by the way, were Indo-European, unless you are referring to the Pelasgians, who even the Greeks admit were Pre-Greek, not Greek at all, and long-gone before Rome ever became even a City State.
Indicating that Indo-European was not the deciding culture factor, both the Etruscans and the Persian/Mesopotamian cultures spread a number of 'traits' to Rome, (although our only evidence for what Etruscans' influence was comes from the Romans themselves, so may be somewhat biased: we don't have any Etruscan accounts to compare). The Roman's own accounts from the early Empire are full of complaints about the "Eastern Influences" creeping into Rome, including religions like the Persian Mithra Cult and Judaism. But both of those began to spread only after Rome became an Empire - with a God-Emperor at its head, so that the idea of a Single God in charge of Everything started to look very familiar to the average Roman. Judaism could not spread far, because you had to be born into it, effectively, but Christianity (or, as the Romans were still calling it as late as 70 CE: "the Jews who call themselves Christians") allowed anybody in. The result was the relatively quick adoption of these two Non-Roman, Non-Indo-European Based religions throughout the Empire because they matched the Roman World-View - the "Master Narrative" of the Roman World.

Buddhism did not, even had it originated next door.

Read Tamin Ansary's The Invention of Yesterday, which explains it in much more detail and probably a lot more coherently than I am.

As @Catoninetails Amplitude indicates, they are going to have some kind of 'variable influence' among their Factions and Faction Types, but that doesn't tell us what kind, how much, or the Details, and they ain't saying yet.

Making, as so usual in these Threads, all of this pure speculation and possibly utterly irrelevant . . .
 
Eagle Pursuit said:
Mycenaeans

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1217144415619338240?s=19

Emblematic Unit: Promochoi

Emblematic Quarter: Cyclopean Fortress

Classification: Warmonger
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Promachoi - if one believes Ascepiodotus, the same term was still being used for the senior and front-rank man of the Macedonian and Successor Phalanx over 1000 years later - which makes perfect sense, there's nothing more conservative than a military mind: the US Army still calls its junior leaders 'Sergeants' which is derived from a Medieval term for a knight's servant.
BUT let's look at that picture:
boar's tusk helmet - check
'figure eight' hide shield over a wooden frame - check
bronze/leather cuirass over the torso - check (at least for the aristocracy, nobody else could afford it!)
Labys, or double-headed axe - WTF? The double axe is a Religious Symbol used by the Minoans. Not Mycenean, not a weapon. You might as well have one of Mussolini's soldiers trying to club someone with a wooden swastika.
At least the guys in the background have short bronze swords - check.

How Could That Happen, he almost asked, then looked at the illustration of the 'Cyclopean Fortress': white walls with banding, red tapering columns - looks a lot like Arthur Evans' reconstruction of the Palace of Knossos - which, again, is Minoan, not Mycenean.*

Something tells me some graphic artist got a pair of near-contemporary Greekish Civilizations confused.
Just hope the graphics on the map and units are correct: If I'm going to be building Minoan Palaces all over the map, I By Labys want to be playing Minoans!

* - yes, the Myceneans took over the Palaces after the Minoans fell apart, but they didn't maintain them and in any case, one of the defining characteristics of the Minoan structures is that they were not fortified, nor were they fortifications - nor were they Cyclopean.

Now we have, as noted, two Warmongers in the Bronze Era so far. Kinda implies that the early game is intended to be 'nasty and brutish' if not short. Given that they've already said that the game starts with a sort of Pre-Era of wandering nomadism, one suspects that this is the first city Era (or maybe the second: cities started sprouting up in the Neolithic and Chalcolithic, centuries before anybody had Bronze), so is it supposed to start off with a militant Bang?
OR, perhaps, there will be a doubling up of one of the other 'Faction Types' since @Catoninetales Amplitude more or less said that they wouldn't use all the different Types in every Era. My vote would be for whatever type emphasizes Trade: the Bronze Age Empires traded long distances with both each other and 'minor' groups and 'barbarians'. That would also make a nice counter to the more militant Warmongering types, and give the gamer some real choices as to how he wants to start his game.
 
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Thank you, Boris, for not disappointing. I was execting a cyclopean wall of text, and you delivered.

As far as the axe is concerned, I hear that our historian agrees with you and remarked on it at the time. I don't know if anything will be changed about it, though.
On the Cyclopean Fortress, I am not entirely sure, but I think there may have been a design shift at some point.
 
Catoninetales_Amplitude said:
Thank you, Boris, for not disappointing. I was execting a cyclopean wall of text, and you delivered.
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Every once in a while you gotta Mix It Up . . .

Catoninetales_Amplitude said:
As far as the axe is concerned, I hear that our historian agrees with you and remarked on it at the time. I don't know if anything will be changed about it, though.
On the Cyclopean Fortress, I am not entirely sure, but I think there may have been a design shift at some point.
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Hah! That makes perfect sense: the Myceneans were a Palace-Building culture also, but Fortified Ones used like the Minoan structures as warehouses and distribution points for food, goods, and military equipment. Sounds like they started to emphasize the Central Government/Aristocracy aspect of Myceneans in the Building, converted that aspect to the Emblematic Unit, changed the building to a military "fort" sort of thing, but never changed the graphic.

As stated, I can live with any kind of graphic on a 'card' or announcement, as long as I dot have to look at it on the map through numerous games - my dentist starts talking to me about grinding my teeth too much . . .
 
All this talk of humankind got me into playing Endless Legend again. It's still an incredible game and with an excellent community patch which brings great AI improvements.

It shows how much more engaging 4x games are when your opponents are competent and can actually challenge you (Though I'm sure super pro players can still probably run rings around them). It's almost like playing an entirely new game, though that might be because of my habit to play lazily and not getting fully engaged if i know i can get away with it.

More than anything it makes me frustrated at Firaxis for not opening up the AI code for modders. Imagine where we could be if a team of community modders had been playing around with the AI since release. Testing ideas and swapping experiments etc etc.

At this rate if the DLL is released (and at this point I'm convinced its a very big if) it will probably take two years of tweaking after that point to have significant improvements and at that point the world will have moved forward with Humankind and possibly Civ VII.

Its just sad knowing the game might never reach its full potential.

Though the existence of the endless legend community patch gives me hope that Amplitude will allow modders access to the AI so they can play around with it.

However since endless legend amplitude has been aquired by Sega and i have a hunch that limited modding access is a publisher problem.

Still there is strong reasons to hope
 
Casworon said:
At this rate if the DLL is released (and at this point I'm convinced its a very big if) it will probably take two years of tweaking after that point to have significant improvements and at that point the world will have moved forward with Humankind and possibly Civ VII.

Its just sad knowing the game might never reach its full potential.
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I wouldn't worry about that. If they release the source code, people will be messing around with it for years to come. I expect considerable reluctance from players to move from CIV VI to a new title, perhaps even greater than what there was between V and VI.
 
I hope thats the case. Personally i am loving the way the industry is moving towards long support and content cycles for single games rather than rushing out new titles. The level of polish and content games get now is incredible.

Also how the success of Age Of Empire's 2 DE shows that if you can get a game just right mechanically and it can keep an active community (helped greatly by a strong modding community). A single title can provide income for years to come
 
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