Humankind Game by Amplitude

Honestly, after two games I played, it gets boring easily.

It’s like your civ and the other civs in your game are just this same frankenstein civilisations which gets old very fast. The initial premise is awesome though, not gonna lie, trying a different civilisation in each different eras is refreshing.

But yeah, remember how bad it was with the Huns in Civ5 and their cities names taken from other civilisations? Well, Humankind have this for each players in all of their games making each and every games feel bland and full of frankenstein civilisations.

I have the same feelings, it's hard to get attached to you own empire, even less for the AI ones.

None seem to have a strong identity, like in Civ how you make your Spain from humble beginnings into a global religious superpower, here your Harappan-Hunnic-Aztec-Spain feels like the others.
It's also hard to keep up with all the bonuses you have gained, and I need to check out the empire panel to refresh my memory. At least for me it's more natural in Civ.

Also I don't really get the same feeling toward AI empires, no old nemesises or buddies. The AI leader models are bit weird but I understand that they don't have Firaxis budget for those.
(Some people like to note how in Civ you face against immortal Gandhi for whole game, well here it is an immortal Boudicca or mr Edgar).

I am still having fun with the game but the sort of blandess is my main gripe at the moment (along with the AI..).
 
Yeah, there are already historical leaders in the game, like Midas, Agamemnon and so on. They just chose not the most famous and biggest Kings and Queens, but lean more into the obscure / mythological. And I don't have the impression that they are bland or repetitive. It's just a hassle to choose them at the start of the game. That screen really needs a random button or a drop down list or a text input box. Either the personalities matter a lot - and you can customize your lineup easily - or they don't - and you can randomize them. As it is, it is weird.

Regardings the next topic, maybe three culture changes would have been enough, combine ancient and classical + medieval and early modern + industrial and modern. That would have allowed for a bit more staying power since the eras can go over really quick, which may be the main problem.
 
Yeah, there are already historical leaders in the game, like Midas, Agamemnon and so on. They just chose not the most famous and biggest Kings and Queens, but lean more into the obscure / mythological. And I don't have the impression that they are bland or repetitive. It's just a hassle to choose them at the start of the game. That screen really needs a random button or a drop down list or a text input box. Either the personalities matter a lot - and you can customize your lineup easily - or they don't - and you can randomize them. As it is, it is weird.

Regardings the next topic, maybe three culture changes would have been enough, combine ancient and classical + medieval and early modern + industrial and modern. That would have allowed for a bit more staying power since the eras can go over really quick, which may be the main problem.

They need to let the players create their own ai avatars People will start making their own Gandhi's and whatnot to fight against. Though the dev ones are higher quality, so it might be preferable for them to make it

Slow and endless speed seem to be good at making each era last a good time before moving on to the next. Standards still a bit too fast
 
Me before release: Humankind will definitely be more difficult game for me than Civ6, it will be refreshing to see a 4x game which values challenge and prevents from runaway snowballing. Finally something meaningful, not infinitely stacking yields for the second half of the game.

Me after release, literally third HK game session ever, Empire difficulty (5th out of 7), not even taking the strongest cultures but those which fit my immersion:
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The market doesn't reward developers for making strategy games challenging. Make it even a little bit hard and the number of negative reviews you get on Steam is astronomical. People want to be able to crank it up to the hardest setting and win easily even if they aren't very good at these games. :-(
 
The market doesn't reward developers for making strategy games challenging. Make it even a little bit hard and the number of negative reviews you get on Steam is astronomical. People want to be able to crank it up to the hardest setting and win easily even if they aren't very good at these games. :-(

I'm not sure about this, XCOM series is very popular and it's really challenging, Darkest Dungeon similarly was a great succcess not in spite of but because of its brutal, challenging, unforgiving nature.

Besides, my problem is not even with the difficulty level itself - I'm sure it wouldn't be so easy if I was invaded early, so it may have been sheer luck, and combat system here is much more challenging than in civ6 - but rather the lack of balance in economic system, which allows on the singularity of expontentially exploding incomes. Either human player or AI may stumble upon that blindly, although humans have an advantage here, and a given player becomes an untouchable God capable of instantly buying everything and instantly crushing any threat.
 
One little odd thing I just found: if you use page up and page down, the camera moves literally up and down in a vertical line, rather than the slightly angled path it takes when using the mouse wheel.

I haven't found any utility to it, just thought it was curious.
 
Real talk, how was this auto-explore exploit not found during the beta testing? It only takes a minute to see that this is basically just maphack lol

Just gonna pretend I didn't see it for now but man they better fix that pretty fast


Also I was thinking about just why Stability feels so poorly balanced in this game and I think this might be the core of the issue
MtxgNoY.jpg


Since you have basically free access to everyone else's luxuries just by spending a bit of money in diplomacy, even if you're mainly just doing it for the yield bonuses it gives to your cities, in the process you also get so many global Stability bonuses that that alone makes up for the Stability costs of districts, and that's not even taking other things that increase it into account yet

Like imagine having free access to every luxury resource on the map in Civ V, how easy it would've been to manage Happiness in that case. That's basically what Humankind is doing here. Something needs to be adjusted
 
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We knew about the auto scout @Onii-chan and also about the excess stability you get from trade if every luxury gives +4 and % modifiers from the manufacturies and the hanging gardens.
 
Can you? I don't see them in the list

I believe it's when you create your avatar. They are presets so they might not exactly look like Gligamesh or Elissa.

The market doesn't reward developers for making strategy games challenging. Make it even a little bit hard and the number of negative reviews you get on Steam is astronomical. People want to be able to crank it up to the hardest setting and win easily even if they aren't very good at these games. :-(

Some gamers are just very fickle people.

I do however consider and agree that there needs to be a balance between "too easy for repeated playing" and "too hard to be unplayable"
 
Some gamers are just very fickle people.

I do however consider and agree that there needs to be a balance between "too easy for repeated playing" and "too hard to be unplayable"

It's economics.
I remember a discussion (at the bar, the best place to discuss gaming!) at the GAMA (Gaming Artists and Manufacturers) convention years ago, which turned to the cost of bringing games to market. One man, a professional in the gaming industry, pointed out that a set of miniatures wargaming rules could be developed, printed and distributed by a few people or one person for a few hundred or around a thousand dollars (this was in the early 2000's, so factor in inflation over the past 12 - 15 years). A board game could be produced and distributed for around $10,000 more or less. A computer game even then took well over a million dollars and was already inflating dramatically each year: each type of game was approximately an order of magnitude more expensive to produce.

That means I could play separate commercial sets of WWII miniatures rules with units of battalion, company, platoon, squad or individual man size, each with its own set of 'fanatic' followers, each commercially viable because they didn't need an intercontinental market to break even.
That's not possible for any computer game today: they have to appeal to a mass market, and that means, inevitably, appealing to the Lowest Common Denominator of gamer - not necessarily a bad thing overall, but one that will strongly influence what you get in any commercial game unless the developers are Financially Suicidal. Add in the influence of major commercial firms doing a lot of the financing of the developer companies/groups/teams and a 'niche' or limited appeal game will not get past the design stage.
 
Huh, just noticed that outposts are actually named after stars--a reference to Endless Space 2, no doubt. It was Cor Caroli that tipped me off, and since then I've noticed several more star names.
 
Played 100 turns, hitting medieval at exactly turn 100.

The good:

- The game is an almost straight Civ clone; the initial turns are indistinguishable from a Civ game. That scores low points for originality, but it does allow them to iterate on what's already there rather than just produce a historical-themed Endless Legend, which was what I'd feared (as popular as it is and as well-written the narrative events, it was extraordinarily shallow as an actual strategy game - basically an RPG in 4x clothing).

- The city development and outpost system I like a lot. It keeps the EL 'one city a territory' rule (though it's hard to see on the main map where territorial boundaries are) while allowing you to directly access areas you can develop from a central hub - big pile of rocks out of the city radius? Build an outpost to justify building Stonemasons.

- While it makes diplomacy even less relevant than it is in Civ games, I like the less binary nature of conflict - as long as you aren't invading you can attack anyone you want. Borders not being 'hard' as in Civ V/VI but working more like Civ IV and earlier is welcome.

- The warscore system similarly seems an improvement.

The not-so-good:

- It has Amplitude AI, so basically take all the flaws of Civ VI AI and imagine they're about an order of magnitude worse. Hopefully some of this is difficulty-related (I didn't see a difficulty level option so just went with whatever the default is for a first game), but enemies not building armies and attacking larger forces with single units is a consistent pattern in all the Endless games that recurs here, so I expect it to be general. There seems no rhyme or reason to which civ AIs evolve into - the Nubians became the Persians, an expansionist civ, after I'd reduced them to one city and they had nowhere to expand.

- It seems very min-max with an optimal path through the game which is basically going to be the same for everyone, and with score victory the only outcome: balanced to maximise the 'stars' acquired through as many routes as possible. I've seen reviews that gush about the fact that if you over-focus on science or whatever you run out of options for stars too soon, interpreting it as a clever balancing mechanism. Except that you can still min-max without maximising a single resource - you're maximising star acquisition - and

3. this game has inherited the rather poor district system of Endless Legend that allows you to pretty much go infinite with buffs of all types with very marginal trade-offs. That latter is further hampered by money being a nearly useless resource for anything other than rush-buying things (and you can rush buy multiples a turn rather than having the production complete the following turn). The outpost system, while I like it as a design, makes this issue even more pronounced - basically you don't have meaningfully limited resources, most resources can be pretty directly substituted for others, and all the caps the game provides can be circumvented (city caps? Just attach lots of outposts - at this point I'm not even fully clear what you want excess cities for. Population? Not actually very important for resource generation with all the buff buildings available), another problem inherited from EL and possibly exacerbated here.

4. It may just be the setup I'm on on my map (a big island with only one rival), but it's hard to get much real sense of an ebb and flow of competing factions on a map as you do with Civ.

5. The UI is pretty rather than functional. Excessive numbers of clicks and box popups are needed to do anything, and it seems more insistent even than Civ VI in pressuring you to take trivial actions just to allow the turn to end. It's still rather opaque to me how faith works, and it isn't given a value on the main UI as other resources are. A lot of things trigger on having X districts of type Y, but so far I haven't found a Civ-style city screen summary of all the buildings and districts I have in a given city to allow planning - basically I just see what my resource needs are at the time (usually food) and click buttons accordingly.

6. Either some tech progression is a bit weird or things aren't explained well enough - for instance you can get harbours, which provide bonuses to emarkation, before you can embark anyone, and I only learned through trial and error that a maritime trade tech allows you to embark (described as allowing the construction of transport ships - a status icon 'units can now embark' a la Civ would have been less flavourful, but more useful.

7. City states are an area where they should have borrowed from EL, or at least Civ VI. This implementation is bewilderingly bad - basically you just gradually pay to buy a city and it gives you ... something? ... in the meantime. Nothing that warrants letting it stay independent, at least.

In all this I haven't mentioned the Civ-switching, which is just a set of mostly additive bonuses (every so often you lose a unit type or building but you've ideally already built all the ones you want). It's closer to Civ V civic selection than anything profoundly new, and there are nice synergies to choose from but generally I suspect what you've already taken will narrow down what you want to two or three options - and perhaps partly due to passive AI but I suspect mostly because functionally they're usually so similar the unique units seem to be an irrelevance.

The big decision is going to be what style you want in that era - Expansionist, Agrarian etc. - and this is one that works well with the system. I started Expansionist only to learn as the game goes on that this is probably better chosen when you can accrue those stars more quickly. The problem cones in that, again, some seem mostly useless, and some civs are a bit too strongly-themed to their mechanic to be of interest. If you conclude, as I have, that money is mostly useless, Merchant is worthless - but all the Merchant civs do basically the same thing, and that's generate money. There should perhaps be more interesting trade-offs: maybe there's an ability I would strongly benefit from but I'd have to weigh that against taking a suboptimal era perk. Instead, it's a bit too much 'rich get richer' for the good options and 'I wasn't going to bother anyway' for the rest. Also, as with every other system most of the advantages to each choice are straight resource buffs - like Endless games before it, it's the most banal form of bucket-filling exercise with minimal elaboration.

All that said I'm enjoying it enough to play straight through to turn 100 in a session, but that's quite common when I start a new 4x. As it stands I don't expect it to have any kind of staying power, and the expansion trajectory of past Endless games doesn't give me confidence that anything more sophisticated is planned - it's old-fashioned in its remorseless '4x as bucket-filling' way, but I expect it to have the same problem that it lacks depth of Amplitude's earlier games.
 
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I think the tutorial is at the easiest difficulty. Sure the game can become less rich later on, but I find my gameplay is much more situation when the AI is set to an appropriate level for me. I find there is zero fun once I am in the lead, but getting there I find very fun.
 
Some gamers are just very fickle people.

I do however consider and agree that there needs to be a balance between "too easy for repeated playing" and "too hard to be unplayable"

No one could ever have accused Amplitude of making games too hard to be playable.

It's economics.
I remember a discussion (at the bar, the best place to discuss gaming!) at the GAMA (Gaming Artists and Manufacturers) convention years ago, which turned to the cost of bringing games to market. One man, a professional in the gaming industry, pointed out that a set of miniatures wargaming rules could be developed, printed and distributed by a few people or one person for a few hundred or around a thousand dollars (this was in the early 2000's, so factor in inflation over the past 12 - 15 years). A board game could be produced and distributed for around $10,000 more or less. A computer game even then took well over a million dollars and was already inflating dramatically each year: each type of game was approximately an order of magnitude more expensive to produce.

That means I could play separate commercial sets of WWII miniatures rules with units of battalion, company, platoon, squad or individual man size, each with its own set of 'fanatic' followers, each commercially viable because they didn't need an intercontinental market to break even.
That's not possible for any computer game today: they have to appeal to a mass market, and that means, inevitably, appealing to the Lowest Common Denominator of gamer - not necessarily a bad thing overall, but one that will strongly influence what you get in any commercial game unless the developers are Financially Suicidal. Add in the influence of major commercial firms doing a lot of the financing of the developer companies/groups/teams and a 'niche' or limited appeal game will not get past the design stage.

A big thing happened after the early 2000s that gave the lie to this perspective: XCOM. A game that actively sought to try and capture the difficulty of its predecessors (the first of which was a game so difficult that it was famously hard despite a bug that prevented the difficulty levels from working and was set to 'easy'), and was such a phenomenal success it not just revived that brand but created a fairly large genre of XCOMalikes. Similarly, in the world of first-person gaming the original Dark Souls had a reputation for being hard.

What's more that logic doesn't work with games that have difficulty levels.

I think the tutorial is at the easiest difficulty. Sure the game can become less rich later on, but I find my gameplay is much more situation when the AI is set to an appropriate level for me. I find there is zero fun once I am in the lead, but getting there I find very fun.

There were three tutorial options (never played a 4x, played non-Humankind 4x, played Humanlind) - if those have any bearing on difficulty rather than just being different levels of tip dropdown, maybe each is at a different level? I chose option 2.

But the vast majority of the issues I have aren't with difficulty, they're with the underlying design philosophy - one it shares with the Endless games - as well as its rigid victory structure. It's not built around trade-offs, it's built around giving the player mostly free and mostly immediate access to resources without having to make choices that matter about where to specialise their workers, or whether building along one chain will cost time, resources or space that limit future options. Everything's just free goodies - right down to the Diablo school of strategy gaming that keeps respawning random resource drops in the landscape.

Ultimately, it's true, 4xes are about 'bucket filling' - fill the food bucket to get a settler or population point (another missing tradeoff here - outposts/cities cost no resources other than influence, the units are still there and any unit type can build one), fill the production bucket to build things, fill a science bucket to get a tech etc. etc. But most do a bit more to disguise that underlying mechanism than 'here are some buckets. Here are resources to collect. Knock yourself out", or at least give you something to do while bucket-filling. I still recall a review of Civ V that described its systems - unfairly in that case, I thought - as 'the worst kind of bucket-filling'. Endless Humans is almost literally the Civ V buckets with all the veneer and complexity removed - *that* is the worst kind of bucket-filling.
 
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Still plodding through my first game but here is my London with the British Town Centre on the right next to Notre Dame. The game contines to dazzle me with its graphics. I can waste a lot of time watching tiny cars make their way through the empire!

For me it's the animals roaming the map, and then the trains once I have my tracks up in the Modern Era - too much temptation to sit and watch instead of playing!
 
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