Humankind- Haudenosaunee Discussion Thread

Beautiful video.

 

I, for one, would like to propose a motion to call the inevitable American civilization "Bloody Colonials".

EDIT: Oh, oh! What about "Creole Bastards"?

 

Creoles are not unique to America. Though it also depends on how much people actually mind.
See the Iroquois vs Hodenoshoni situation, while Mohawk ("cannibals" in a diff. language) seems to be accepted. The lady in the linked video calls them that as well.

 

I am wondering what city list will they have. Civ5 had terrible city list for them, with native names being mixed with English ones. Because Poverty Point is such inspiring city name

 

Code:

INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_1', 'Onondaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_2', 'Osininka', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_3', 'Oneida', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_4', 'Ganondagan', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_5', 'Goiogouen', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_6', 'Caughnawaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_7', 'Kanadaseaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_8', 'Ganatsekwyago', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_9', 'Canojaharie', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_10', 'Ganneious', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_11', 'Kanonwalohale', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_12', 'Canawaugus', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_13', 'Schoharie', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_14', 'Akwesasne', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_15', 'Cattaraugus', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_16', 'Hochelaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_17', 'Stadacona', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_18', 'Saratoga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_19', 'Onaquaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_20', 'Tiononderoge', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_21', 'Kendaia', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_22', 'Shamokin', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_23', 'Chenussio', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_24', 'Chonodote', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_25', 'Teiaiagon', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_26', 'Tionondogen', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_27', 'Garoga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_28', 'Totiakton', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_29', 'Nowadaga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_30', 'Kanatsiohareke', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_31', 'Skahnehtati', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_32', 'Onnontare', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_33', 'Tiohero', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_34', 'Canienga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_35', 'Osquake', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_36', 'Teatontaloga', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_37', 'Chittenango', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_38', 'Hostayuntwa', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_39', 'Ossewingo', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_40', 'Tkanetota', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_41', 'Touenho', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_42', 'Ahaouete', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_43', 'Deseroken', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_44', 'Gannentaha', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_45', 'Chenango', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_46', 'Joneadih', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_47', 'Onnahee', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_48', 'Yoroonwago', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_49', 'Sheshequin', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_50', 'Annaooka', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_51', 'Ingaren', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_52', 'Unanauhan', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_53', 'Tasqui', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_54', 'Nyuchirhaan', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);
INSERT INTO Language_en_US SELECT 'TXT_KEY_IROQUOIS_CITY_55', 'Contahnah', null, null WHERE EXISTS (SELECT * FROM COMMUNITY WHERE Type='ACN-CITIES' AND Value=1);

 

I do know about this mod but thank you

 

I was going to link the exact video @Elhoim did, but they beat me to it. Haudenosaunee is not difficult for an English speaker to pronounce, and a little education goes a long way.

To be fair, Kanienʼkehá꞉ka, Gayogohó:no, Onyota'a:ka, Onöñda’gaga’, O-non-dowa-gah, and Skarù:ręˀ are a lot less accessible to Anglophones than Haudenosaunee.

 

Back in college I found a book published in Philadelphia around 1799 that listed then-known 'Iroquois' villages. It was written by a clergyman, and I suspect it was a guide for sending missionaries to 'convert the heathen'. It is the earliest listing of Haudenosneee sites that I have found, but note that the exact spelling of some of the sites is different in later lists and the association of sites and specific groups I would regard as tentative at best. I strongly suspect that the spelling variations with later lists is more due to the difficulty of precisely translating the Haundenosenee into 'normal' English than anything else. For those looking for a Haudenosenee 'city list' it is, at least, a Starting Point. First column is the site, in parentheses the 'tribe' that the booklet associated with it.

Onandaga (Onandaga) Capital
Ahaouet (Onandaga)
Deseroken (Onandaga)
Gadoquat (Onandaga)
Gannentaha (Onandaga)
Kanadaseagea (Onandaga)
Kanatakowa (Onandaga)
Onantatacet (Onandaga)
Tgasunto (Onandaga)
Touenho (Onandaga)

Canadasaga (Seneca)
Cashong (Seneca)
Cattaraugus (Seneca)
Deyodeshot (Seneca)
Gadaho (Seneca)
Geneseo (Seneca)
Honeoye (Seneca)
Kaygen (Seneca)
Nondas (Seneca)
Tonawanda (Seneca)

Chondote (Cayuga)
Ganogeh (Cayuga)
Gayagaanhe (Cayuga)
Gewauga (Cayuga)
Kawauka (Cayuga)
Kiohero (Cayuga)
Neodakheat (Cayuga)
Oneniote (Cayuga)
Onnontare (Cayuga)
Oswego (Cayuga)

Canajoharie (Mohawk)
Canienga (Mohawk)
Nowadaga (Mohawk)
Onoalagona (Mohawk)
Osquake (Mohawk)
Saratoga (Mohawk)
Schaunactada (Mohawk)
Schohari (Mohawk)
Tewanondadon (Mohawk)
Unadilla (Mohawk)

Awegen (Oneida)
Cahunhage (Oneida)
Chittenango (Oneida)
Ganadoga (Oneida)
Oneida (Oneida)
Ossewingo (Oneida)
Ostogeron (Oneida)
Solocka (Oneida)
Tetosweken (Oneida)
Tuscarora (Oneida)

Tribes not specified or Mixed Tribes:

Allaquippa
Cayahuga
Chincklacamoose
Conemaugh
Coshockton
Jedakne
Juniata
Kahendohon
Karaken
Kittaning
Mahoning
Nescopek
Onaweron
Runonvea
Sconassi
Shamokin
Shenango
Tioga
Venango
Youcham

 

All the other cultures get appropriate ortography, though. The units are Zhànchē, Ṣābu ša qašti, ... and the city names also use local ortographies: Mykênê, Waššukanni, Malmö,...
However, these are pretty wildly different among the various Iroquoian languages.

Canadasaga (Seneca) should thus be Ganö:da'se'ge (new town), but a similar word in Mohawk would be Kaná:tase (Tkaná:tase is Newtown, NY).
You're juggling both the various orthographies in play as well as well as trying to decipher the words which were butchered to write it down like this, which makes it harder than if we found a list of names in the actual language.
The Seneca dictionary, for instance lists many modern placenames. Tganödä:gwëh for "Canandaigua", but also many native names for modern places like O’sóötgeh (turkey place) for "Darien, NY".
All these place-names are descriptive and could work with or without American settlers being there.

 

I noticed when I tried comparing the 1799 list with more modern lists that 'K', 'G' and 'C' seemed to be interchangeable in spelling site names, and assumed that it depended on the native dialect or tribe doing the speaking.

And, among the sites on the 1799 list, I suspect many are not originally Haudenosenee at all. Many sites in modern Pennsylvania, some still known under the 1799 names like Shamokin, Shenango, Kittaning, Mahoning, Coshockton and Juniata, were probably Delaware or Susquehannok or are Haudenosenee renderings of originals from those tribes. Chincklacamoose, for instance, is modern Clearfield, Pennsylvania, and the local County Museum identifies the name as 'Delaware'. That can be taken with a grain of salt, however, because a lot of place names in central Pennsylvania were identified with 'Delaware' simply because about the time the Europeans started settling the area (1750s) the Delaware were just leaving (having been given a sort of 'Get Out Of My Sight' order from the Haudenosenee).

And precise orthography for Utterly Non-English/Non-Indo-European Language renderings is going to be a problem for any game company. I bounced off of that when trying to put together a 'real' city list for Mayans: the orthography originally used for many sites was an ad hoc mixture of Spanish and English, and more precise archeological research later has resulted in some wild variations on the commonly understood names of Mayan Cities. My favorite so far is 'Uxmal' which can also be rendered as Ooxmaal or Uchmal and could therefore appear on a city list three times with 99.99% of the players being none the wiser.

 

Pretty much. In all of these languages, voiceless 'k' and 't' become voiced 'g' and 'd' before vowels (plus some ). Mohawk spelling leaves that up to the reader to know, while Seneca or Onondaga spelling rules ask you to write voiced and voiceless sounds as they appear in speech. And since this change happened within traceable history (at a time when some people spoke like that while others did not) and spelling wasn't standardised until the early 90s, it lead to the resulting mess of highly varied spellings everywhere. That and the confusion of vowels, usually the nasal ones, which vary greatly between the various langs.

We'll see how the devs handle this. Though at least compared to a situation like with say, Arabic, the existence of a unified spelling standard should help things a great deal, if the devs do go for it, that is (and well, even the Sabu Sha Qashti used to be romanised thus when the culture card first dropped compared to their in-game name, so they are putting in a conscious effort to go through with this).

 

The 'conscious effort' is the part I find most heartening about Amplitude and Humankind. Hopefully, it will at least avoid such Civ VI boners as a Temple Wonder being named for the city it is in (Chichen Itza instead of the Temple of Kukulkan) - and, for that matter, the city name being its last name, not the one by which it was called during the high point of its influence, and without the diacriticals (according to one article, it should be Chich'en Itza', and earlier it was Uuc Yabnai, or Uuc Hab Nal, or Uucyabnal, or Uc Abnal, depending on which paleo-linguist you're listening to at the moment)

 

I'm going off of my experience on my localized wikipedia, which made it explicit to all people trying to write on arabic topics there has never been an accepted romanisation standard developed (into our language).
Likewise, I know there's the colloquial chat Arabic, and seeing that UN still has to rule on this, it doesn't sound like a solved problem. Then again, I don't deal with the language so I could be dead wrong on the state of its romanisation efforts/standards.

 

As far as the emblematics and trait, here are my baseless guesses:

LT: Beaver Wars - double yields from luxury resource extractors, and receive luxury resources worked by independent peoples under patronage
Fits loosely with the theme of agrarian focus as far as extracting natural resources, and also shows the Haudenosaunee dominance of the fur trade. Good for trading extra luxury goods with other major powers, as the Haudenosaunee excelled at, and could probably synergize with whatever the Ghanaian luxury market does. Quick side note, I wonder if luxury resources will have unique bonuses as with Endless Legend, I hope they do.

EU: Rotiskenrakehte - higher buff from terrain bonuses and no sight malus in forests
I wonder if having an ambush ability (mentioned in the unit description) will be possible in the battle system in Humankind, like having the enemy go into the first round of combat blind, because that would be way cool.

EQ: Three Sisters Plantation - +x food, + x food to adjacent farmers quarters, +1 farmer slot on settlement
Bonus to adjacent farmers quarters to represent companion planting. Put it in the middle of a bunch of farmers quarters to have food yields skyrocket.

 

I am a fan of Persian culture and history, and spelling in this regard is an utter abomination. Every ancient place has several place names taken from Old Persian, Middle Persian, Persian and Arabic, on top of that Turkic languages come at some point, then combine it with Greek, Roman and later chaotic exonyms, and good luck figuring out how to write down anything from this area in any European language. The city of Isfahan is simultaneously Espahan, Eṣfahān, Spahan, Ispahan, Hispahan, Sepahan, and in Greek it was called Apadana. Good luck.

 

There already was with the Maya, Olmec, and Aztec

 

I meant Native American music from north of the Rio Grande.

 

Perhaps it is just because I grew up in Massachusetts, but we learned about the Haudenosaunee in public school. Yes we referred to them as the Iroquois but we also learned that they referred to themselves as the Haudenosaunee. So this term is totally fine, and makes me quite happy.

Besides, anyone who doesn't know the term can take a quick 2 seconds to Google it and realize "oh it's the Iroquois who I already know of" and voila they've learned something new yet still have the cultural tropes that let them quickly identify the gameplay bonuses of the group. The Iroquois are already well-known by now, so it is time to take the next step to having their culture and history be mainstream, and name them what they want to be called.