Humankind - Venetians discussion thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I do agree that an actual culture called Italians should show up in Modern Era alongside well Germans and Soviets.

Though I do feel like the Venetians are going to be the only representation for Renaissance Italy, even through DLC through their design.

 

[CivLuvah]

What would be interesting in the endgame would be the possibility to create alliances similar to the EU or the USSR.

That would be better than having a "European" modern culture, and more dynamic. On the one hand, it adds a unique layer of complexity; on the other hand though, it adds a level of complexity that right know I don't know how it would fit. We don't even know the diplomacy system yet, let alone if there will be something similar to the UN/World Congress.

 

[Elhoim]

That would be better than having a "European" modern culture, and more dynamic. On the one hand, it adds a unique layer of complexity; on the other hand though, it adds a level of complexity that right know I don't know how it would fit. We don't even know the diplomacy system yet, let alone if there will be something similar to the UN/World Congress.

The first idea that came to mind was that alliances in the final era would work as fame multipliers, that achievements that members of the alliance get are shared by the members by a %. So if there's a runaway fame civ, some can gang up together to increase their fame output, and get a chance at winning (and last minute betrayals maybe!).

 

[Atlas627]

Hmm, I hope their unique ability screams "control water for trade", because even though they're Mercantile and have the Galleass, I'm not feeling the Artist's Workshop. I want emblematic canals! I want to have an Extension boom where I fill in all the gaps with Canal districts which give me tons of Money for adjacent Quarters!

That being said, I am thrilled to have the Venetians and do not understand all of the quibbling over not having a Renaissance Italy culture. This is that culture!

 

[CivLuvah]

Hmm, I hope their unique ability screams "control water for trade", because even though they're Mercantile and have the Galleass, I'm not feeling the Artist's Workshop. I want emblematic canals! I want to have an Extension boom where I fill in all the gaps with Canal districts which give me tons of Money for adjacent Quarters!

That being said, I am thrilled to have the Venetians and do not understand all of the quibbling over not having a Renaissance Italy culture. This is that culture!

Florence would like to have a word. The Italian Renaissance was defined by its art as much as it is for its commercial influence. Venice's speciality was mostly mercantile power, so I feel that an art-centered culture is needed. It feels awkward to have, say, a Renaissance work of art as a Great Work and not have an Italian civ of some kind.

As I mentioned before somewhere in this thread, the game mechanics allow you to make city-states of some kind within your civilization via territories, outposts turning into cities, and such and such. You can imagine yourself managing different city-states rather than just one centralized state. So I think a Renaissance Italy culture would fit well in a mechanic perspective. I would want Civ6 to have that, but in Humankind, that possibility of feeding the player's imagination is more fleshed out.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Florence would like to have a word. The Italian Renaissance was defined by its art as much as it is for its commercial influence. Venice's speciality was mostly mercantile power, so I feel that an art-centered culture is needed. It feels awkward to have, say, a Renaissance work of art as a Great Work and not have an Italian civ of some kind.

Considering Venice's EQ is an Artist Studio I do believe this is the representative for the Italian Renaissance, though I agree that it isn't the best city to represent it.

They even mentioned how a Canal EQ would have been better for the Venetians and I agree. That way a Florentine culture could have got the artist studio later on in a DLC.

That being said I think a unified Italian culture will still show up later in the Modern Era, which is why even in Humankind a singular Italian culture won't happen in Early Modern.

 

[Atlas627]

Florence would like to have a word. The Italian Renaissance was defined by its art as much as it is for its commercial influence. Venice's speciality was mostly mercantile power, so I feel that an art-centered culture is needed. It feels awkward to have, say, a Renaissance work of art as a Great Work and not have an Italian civ of some kind.

As I mentioned before somewhere in this thread, the game mechanics allow you to make city-states of some kind within your civilization via territories, outposts turning into cities, and such and such. You can imagine yourself managing different city-states rather than just one centralized state. So I think a Renaissance Italy culture would fit well in a mechanic perspective. I would want Civ6 to have that, but in Humankind, that possibility of feeding the player's imagination is more fleshed out.

I didn't say Venice is the best representative for Renaissance art, and I totally agree that the Renaissance is very famous for its art. What I'm saying is that, by making the Venetian EQ the Artist's Workshop, this is the culture that represents Renaissance Italy.

I would not be surprised if they later add Florence as an Aesthete culture with a Condottieri unit and swap the Artist's Workshop over to them, and give Venice canals. Or some combination of Mercantile with a Bank for the Medici.

 

[Narcisse]

@Atlas627 The EQ is about Venetian artists, learning their art in Venetian schools, why you want to switch and give it to Tuscans ? A merchant culture is perfect too to be a great benefactor/sponsor/backer of artists.(it's actually really legit)
You can give so much other things to Tuscans, Renaissance churches (a basic and emblematic innovation of Florence), their palazzo are an amazing and emblematic architectural type of palace (you learn about that in all Architecture Schools), Santa Maria del Fiore could be litteraly a Wonder. (amazing architectural achievement of Florence)...

About the Canal EQ, it's looks so meaningless about the Venetian culture imho and in term of game design. How it's look ? You can only build them on rivers ? On coastal tiles ? And what ? It's a canal with a little bridge ? As the Brugges ones ?
Yes, it's telling an iconic and touristic vision, and a certain way of life of the singular city of Venice, but it's telling nothing about Venetian international achievements, how their culture widespread through their different cities and what's the point in term of game design.
It's need to be repeatable and I don't know ... you want to give Canals to a culture for which it was really impressive because for their historical period it was an amazing achievement (hello Happarapans, and some other Ancient Cultures) not just because it's pretty in one of their city.

I'm sure than there is a lot of ancient cultures from south america or middle-east in ancient/classical era, which have revolutionary Canals system to speak about.
I know than Nabataeans have some amazing system of canals, dams and swimming pools in Hegra (in the desert) for exemple.

I don't know if you want to show something from Venice canals in all of your Venetian cities, something ponctual seems to be enough for me. Venetian Arsenal as wonder could give a Venice vibe to one of your city (named Venice and your capital if you want to be roleplay). Or suggest something architectural, as the amazing venetian Gothic Palazzio (from 14-15th century) which are on water. But canal seems so generic and not really a specific Venetian prowess. It's like a lot of cities which were builds on a bad spot, but which adapted to it, and became cute.

"Scientific, philosophical and mathematical thought entered Italy through Egypt and the Levant. Triggers for new Renaissance linguistic studies, Greek texts and scholars capable of teaching to Italians how to read them arrive from Constantinople after its conquest by Ottoman forces in 1453 in the academies of Florence and Venice, which are reborn from their ashes ."
I think than the deep connections of Venetians to multiple cultures through times are the things you want to show in Humankind. (They were Byzantine vassals, later their rivals, later their heir. They were artistic rivals to other Italian citystates. With their trading road to the east they were the direct concurrent to portuguese with their trading road to africa, etc ...). So a repeatable Aesthete EQ make sense for me, Obviously a Merchant EQ or a Naval merchant/warfare EQ make sense too.

I know than in Civ it's "Unique" quarter, not "Emblematic" quarter, but here, the canal thing, remember me this terrible choice of Grand Bazaar for Ottomans, which tell nothing about Ottomans architectural/artistic achievements, just give the name of a ponctual and today high touristic place of Istanbul (which could be a wonder if not so bad named and designed).

The Artists District is maybe not the most emblematic thing of Venetians (even if why not, I don't know, I read about that, and seems enough legit, I think the Amplitude historians must be competent), but please suggest something that reflects the way how venetian widespread their cultures. Because there is a lot of Venetian remains in a lot of cities and territories, and this is not canals which only are a thing in the city of Venice, and tell nothing about the Venetian radiance.

Edit : Still, my personal expectations for venetians were their Gothic Palazzo, but honestly I stayed reasonable about that, because, the timeline is not the best, and in term of gameplay I don't even know how it could work. (a coastal residential district ? with some canals through the quarter ? don't look really believable in term of gamedesign) or a City Center with some water, will look silly in multiple cities and some of the different biomes ... etc ...
Their coastal/naval forts in all their cities and colonies are rather emblematic and repeatable, but... it's really weak in term of stories.

Anyway, the Boggethe of Artisti has the merit to be original, and will be cool to have in all my Venetian cities (Zara, Bari, Vicenza, etc ...)

Edit 2 : You can even imagine than motivated modders add some little water ramifications/canals on Venetian generic quarters when you build it near water/coastal tiles/swamp tiles ?
(Paint level, sorry)

But for my personnal level of abstraction, building my mediteranean city on a river and having developped some Canal Technology seems to be enough for me to make one Venice city lookalike.
(zoom on openDev outro screenshot)


Sorry for this long post buddies, my meaning is than suggesting Emblematic Units and Quarters, it really more complex, and not so evident, when we transpose it in the context of the game and with the idea of culture of HK, than just throwing some ideas on forum or reddit

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

@Atlas627 The EQ is about Venetian artists, learning their art in Venetian schools, why you want to switch and give it to Tuscans ? A merchant culture is perfect too to be a great benefactor/sponsor/backer of artists.(it's actually really legit)
You can give so much other things to Tuscans, Renaissance churches (a basic and emblematic innovation of Florence), their palazzo are an amazing and emblematic architectural type of palace (you learn about that in all Architecture Schools), Santa Maria del Fiore could be litteraly a Wonder. (amazing architectural achievement of Florence)...

Sure the culture card references the Venetian school of Art but the name, Botteghe di Artisti, literally means Artist's studio/workshop which were common in many Italian places. I think the point is this building could have easily gone to a a Tuscan culture, arguably the most famous one in Florence, which was Leonardo Da Vinci's.

I know than in Civ it's "Unique" quarter, not "Emblematic" quarter, but here, the canal thing, remember me this terrible choice of Grand Bazaar for Ottomans, which tell nothing about Ottomans architectural/artistic achievements, just give the name of a ponctual and today high touristic place of Istanbul (which could be a wonder if not so bad named and designed).

At the same time I would argue that Grand Bazaar would be more unique or emblematic for the Ottomans than what the Venetians currently have. At least the Grand Bazaar was built during the Ottoman Empire and it only exists in Turkey. It might be different if it was just a general bazaar as that is Persian in origin.

 

[Narcisse]

I don't know, I already exposed my point, there is enough amazing things of Tuscany to show, instead of reusing an existing EQ, Florence made massive architectural achievements, take one of them.


And for the Grand Bazaar, I explained the thing on the speculation thread, sorry to be so much redundant for poeple which will read this again
The Ottomans name of the Grand Bazaar was originally the "New Bedesten" or "Bedesten of Gems".
Bedesten are typical Ottoman architecture, Bazaar refer to something more generic OR to the persian/iranian culture.
The architecture of an Ottoman Bedesten is different of a Persian bazaar, even if you find this sort of Bazaar in a lot of countries as Ottomans Empire/Turkey, because obviously Persians have widespread this architectural concept of markets in a lot of places.
And the Grand Bazaar is just a unique place of Istanbul, it don't refer to the whole Turkey or the whole Ottoman culture.
The Grand Bazaar of Civ, is a sort of generic Bazaar from Disney Aladdin, It's simply insulting for the achievement of Ottoman culture :



This is the lIRC Great Bazaar :

some other Ottoman bedesten, with the same roof, it's an only covered market :




What is my point of Ottomans architecture in the Venetian thread : "History of Architecture" is a thing too.

Representing the Ottomans with a touristic place of the Modern Turkey and his modern name instead of the name which give the meaning to a typical Ottoman architecture type which exist and is more accurate, is a mistake.
Giving a byzantine wonder to Ottomans without giving them one of their own architectural achievement, is a mistake and insulting (showing them only able to conquer, but not able to build things)
Because with the Byzantine knowledges and observations of their architecture, Ottomans technically surpassed the architecture of their time. Sinan is described as the Ottoman Michelangelo, and builded impressive Mosque for exemple, some interesting Hammam too
What's the point of this generic bazaar, bad named and bad represented : only colporting clichés.

So, there is no better suggestions than a canal with some gondola ? How it will looks ? It's my question.

 

[Atlas627]

@Atlas627 The EQ is about Venetian artists, learning their art in Venetian schools, why you want to switch and give it to Tuscans ? A merchant culture is perfect too to be a great benefactor/sponsor/backer of artists.(it's actually really legit)

Change the name and the description and it would be about the Florentine version of the same thing. And the Florentines are also known for being successful merchants, but in a completely different way: loans and banking. The Venetians were famous for their naval empire and trade network, so that is why I think emphasizing that even more would be nice.

You can give so much other things to Tuscans, Renaissance churches (a basic and emblematic innovation of Florence), their palazzo are an amazing and emblematic architectural type of palace (you learn about that in all Architecture Schools), Santa Maria del Fiore could be litteraly a Wonder. (amazing architectural achievement of Florence)...

Sure, you can give Florence other things. I am saying I want Venice to have something else, and whoever they add as another Renaissance Italy representative would get the Artist's Workshop. Any culture worthy of representing Renaissance Italy had very similar art schools, just teaching a different style.

About the Canal EQ, it's looks so meaningless about the Venetian culture imho and in term of game design. How it's look ? You can only build them on rivers ? On coastal tiles ? And what ? It's a canal with a little bridge ? As the Brugges ones ?
Yes, it's telling an iconic and touristic vision, and a certain way of life of the singular city of Venice, but it's telling nothing about Venetian international achievements, how their culture widespread through their different cities and what's the point in term of game design.
It's need to be repeatable and I don't know ... you want to give Canals to a culture for which it was really impressive because for their historical period it was an amazing achievement (hello Happarapans, and some other Ancient Cultures) not just because it's pretty in one of their city.

I'm sure than there is a lot of ancient cultures from south america or middle-east in ancient/classical era, which have revolutionary Canals system to speak about.
I know than Nabataeans have some amazing system of canals, dams and swimming pools in Hegra (in the desert) for exemple.

I don't know if you want to show something from Venice canals in all of your Venetian cities, something ponctual seems to be enough for me. Venetian Arsenal as wonder could give a Venice vibe to one of your city (named Venice and your capital if you want to be roleplay). Or suggest something architectural, as the amazing venetian Gothic Palazzio (from 14-15th century) which are on water. But canal seems so generic and not really a specific Venetian prowess. It's like a lot of cities which were builds on a bad spot, but which adapted to it, and became cute.

Venice was powerful for centuries because nobody could conquer it because it was on an island, which was habitable because of the canal system. This is literally the thing that made the culture work. The one city of Venice is such a huge part of the entire empire that the canal system of the single city is therefore a huge part of the entire culture. Yes other cultures had canals, but none based their entire empire on it, which clearly enabled the other Venetian accomplishments in turn.

As for *how* to implement it in the game, I see no reason why it has to have special placement requirements, but if they can force you to connect one to water that might be cool. I cannot possibly say what would be a good idea for the game because we have not seen much of the game's mechanics and balance, just the broad strokes. I think this would be a good opportunity to turn the Extension-adjacency mechanics on their head; normally, you are building a lot of spread out Extensions so you Exploit as many tiles as possible, but this would be a good time to say "aha, a culture which is known for interesting urbanization, fill in those holes!"

"Scientific, philosophical and mathematical thought entered Italy through Egypt and the Levant. Triggers for new Renaissance linguistic studies, Greek texts and scholars capable of teaching to Italians how to read them arrive from Constantinople after its conquest by Ottoman forces in 1453 in the academies of Florence and Venice, which are reborn from their ashes ."
I think than the deep connections of Venetians to multiple cultures through times are the things you want to show in Humankind. (They were Byzantine vassals, later their rivals, later their heir. They were artistic rivals to other Italian citystates. With their trading road to the east they were the direct concurrent to portuguese with their trading road to africa, etc ...). So a repeatable Aesthete EQ make sense for me, Obviously a Merchant EQ or a Naval merchant/warfare EQ make sense too.

Connections to other cultures are important, but are hard to simulate here. What if nobody picks the Byzantines? The Medieval era doesn't even have a single Aesthete culture, so where is the narrative connection in-game?

Sure the culture card references the Venetian school of Art but the name, Botteghe di Artisti, literally means Artist's studio/workshop which were common in many Italian places. I think the point is this building could have easily gone to a a Tuscan culture, arguably the most famous one in Florence, which was Leonardo Da Vinci's.

I agree with you, which is exactly my point. It was a common theme in the city-states of Renaissance Italy. Giving it to Venice *makes* Venice the representative of Renaissance Italy.

 

[Narcisse]

"Yes other cultures had canals, but none based their entire empire on it"

It's my point, their entire empire was not based on it. Only Venice was.

"Connections to other cultures are important, but are hard to simulate here. What if nobody picks the Byzantines? The Medieval era doesn't even have a single Aesthete culture, so where is the narrative connection in-game?"

What if there is no Norse or Slave in your game, you will always have your Varangian Guards as Byzantine. It's abstract, you can just imagine than these culture exist, even if they are not on your map.
Venetians themself are a complex ethnicity thing, as all cultures, they were not just Italians, this national idendity didn't even exist at this time.

"Giving it to Venice *makes* Venice the representative of Renaissance Italy."

And Venice was IIRC a representative of Renaissance too. Not as much famous as Tuscans. But both were representative. And some other Italian citystates obv.
So it's seems legit in the Renaissance Era of the game to give them something of the Renaissance.
IDK, the Venetian CC will maybe be a gothic palazzo ( Doge Palace), you have their emblematic naval unit, and a Renaissance EQ; seems to be a complete representation of that culture for me.
Tuscans can get a similar balance : Palazzio Vecchio as CC, Renaissance Basilica as EQ, Condotierre to get the Italy wars representation and clash with Venetian, Santa Maria del Fiore as Wonder...

And tbh, I don't know if IIRC Venice Arsenal is considered as a "Wonder", it is in Civ, but if you have this ponctual Wonder in your Venice city (among all your Venetians cities), we will get the canals - bridge - island representation. Could be really cool.

As I said before, I never said than the Artists District is the best choice, I'm just saying than Canal EQ is not "so much better", looks even worse for me in term of gameplay and repeatability in multiple cities.
Maybe attach your suggestion of canal concept to an architectural thing. Because it just look like the Harrapans EQ for the moment

 

[mitsho]

I'd want canal quarters to be available to every culture. I think it's cool enough not to have to be restricted to just one culture. That's another mistake of civ6: they think of a cool and unique design and implement it. The later the game gets, the more outlandish these become. That's why f.e. the Maya have a much more interesting design than the Romans. And that's bad.

Have the artists workshop for Venice, it's an exchangeable emblematic, and keep "quarters on sea tiles" to add later on for everyone.

 

[Narcisse]

Fair and good idea too. Remember me the idea of having a generic Chinampa quarter for lake tiles, instead to build 3 huge ports in a lake (looks goofy ). Or sort of ricefields, multi-level cultivations for tiles near cliffs, etc ...

And there is multiple "Venice" in Europe ahah, could be fair to make a city with canals with Dutch, or a sort of Brugges.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

"Giving it to Venice *makes* Venice the representative of Renaissance Italy."

And Venice was IIRC a representative of Renaissance too. Not as much famous as Tuscans. But both were representative. And some other Italian citystates obv.
So it's seems legit in the Renaissance Era of the game to give them something of the Renaissance.
IDK, the Venetian CC will maybe be a gothic palazzo ( Doge Palace), you have their emblematic naval unit, and a Renaissance EQ; seems to be a complete representation of that culture for me.
Tuscans can get a similar balance : Palazzio Vecchio as CC, Renaissance Basilica as EQ, Condotierre to get the Italy wars representation and clash with Venetian, Santa Maria del Fiore as Wonder...

And tbh, I don't know if IIRC Venice Arsenal is considered as a "Wonder", it is in Civ, but if you have this ponctual Wonder in your Venice city (among all your Venetians cities), we will get the canals - bridge - island representation. Could be really cool.

As I said before, I never said than the Artists District is the best choice, I'm just saying than Canal EQ is not "so much better", looks even worse for me in term of gameplay and repeatability in multiple cities.
Maybe attach your suggestion of canal concept to an architectural thing. Because it just look like the Harrapans EQ for the moment

I'll agree that I don't know if a Canal EQ would be a better choice, but still I think from the design that I wouldn't be surprised if the Venetians were the the only Italian culture in the Modern Era due to the choice of the EQ.

 

[Narcisse]

Maybe. Florence could be decent as Independant poeple. But I will be really sad to not have a culture with Renaissance basilica as EQ when we already have a Franks Gothic Cathedral wonder, and Spainish Gotica/Plateresco Cathedral.
And only Tuscans deserves to have that as EQ. I wonder which culture could have some Baroque style EQ or CC ?

And Condotierre with his condotta could be so cool to represent the Renaissance warfare (instead of only gunpowers representation). With something romanticist and cliché, a warband with cool shiny armors and rapiers haha

Edit : Look Rovinj, part of Venetian Empire for several centuries in Dalmatia. There is no canals but looks credible as Venetian city for me haha . But I agree, it will never look like Venice obviously

 

[Atlas627]

You can keep saying that Venice the city was the only city with the extensive canal network, but the entire empire was based on that one city. The Venetians were able to build a densely populated city due to the sanitation provided by the canals, the canals allowed the islands to be connected and expanded so a lot of people could live safely on the island, the island was unconquerable and thus the empire was free to focus on trade and maritime power, and that in turn led to the funding/knowledge/freedom to patronize art. Everything the empire was famous for came about because of the city, and the city only worked because of the canals. Otherwise, it would've either been a bunch of small islands nobody could live on, or a stinky smelly city just like the rest of them that nobody could survive in.

I am not super enamored with the canals as a tourist attraction. I've been to Venice. They're all dirty and the city is sinking, so nobody uses the canals for their daily life anymore. I think canals, dams, and other forms of urban planning via water manipulation are all extremely cool and fun to play with, but Venice is by far the best example of a culture's success and fame being *based on* their canals. This would be a good opportunity to use it, whereas any Renaissance Italy culture could have an Artist's Workshop. Just as you are suggesting Florence is the right opportunity to include Italian Cathedral architecture, I am suggesting Venice is the right opportunity to include extensive Canal networks.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I doub devs are goin to double the number of cultures but considering that Early Modern could have:

- Burmese
- Hungarian
- Iranian (Safavid)
- Kanembu
- Kongolese
- Manchu
- Mapuche
- Portuguese
- Somali
- Swiss

Hungarians could be medieval, but the Magyar option is there also and Medieval Era is even more crowded that Early Modern. Austria could be a good Early Modern option but it is also a strong Industrial option.
I know the Qing as Industrial could represent the Manchu, but their Early Modern Jin (Jurchen/Manchu) are also relevant and would works perfect with Ming/Joseon/Edo.
And dont forget the Gran Duchy of Moscow/Tsardom of Russia.
Something representative from Indonesia/Philippines could works also.

So after see all these, for me Venice is perfectly good to represent all of early modern italian states.

 

[Narcisse]

You can keep saying that Venice the city was the only city with the extensive canal network, but the entire empire was based on that one city.

It's not a question of mutually "keep saying things", it's a question of facts. personally I am unaware of any other Venetian cities of the Venetian empire which were canal cities too or provided with a similar canal network. If you know some of these other venetian cities, just share it, I'm interessed obviously.
For the rest, I know the story of Venice yes.

Anyway, Dutch deserve more the Canal EQ, Amsterdam best canal city


@BuchiTaton Inca being confirmed as DLC, do you think it could be interesting to have them in Early Modern too ? (having their clash with Spainish, and a sort of interesting lineage in early modern, to not just put all mesoamerican cultures in medieval and previous era ?)
With the lack of informations about Magyar, and being horse raiders tribes (maybe redundant with Huns) I think we can totally go with medieval Hungarian, they have interesting stories with the confirmed cultures and a strong identity.
Kanembu could be cool in medieval imo. For the Swiss, I'm not really convinced, they were the Mercenaries of european nations in EM, so they seems to be perfect as independant poeple to recrute maybe ? or Swiss Guards in some mercenaries market ?
But tbh I don't know so much about their history, so I will be interessed to know more about your envisaged archetype.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Anyway, Dutch deserve more the Canal EQ, Amsterdam best canal city

Well I can definitely see that. I'd prefere windmils though.

@BuchiTaton Inca being confirmed as DLC, do you think it could be interesting to have them in Early Modern too ? (having their clash with Spainish, and a sort of interesting lineage in early modern, to not just put all mesoamerican cultures in medieval and previous era ?)

Inca makes more sense as a Medieval Era culture. Besides they aren't Mesoamerican, they are Andean. Mesoamerica only refers to the historical regions of Mexico down through the northern part of Costa Rica.

There can easily be an Andean branch of groups:
Norte Chico>Nazca or Muisca> Inca, maybe Mapuche