Humankind- Zulus discussion thread

[Patine]

I think the point they were trying to make is that because it's mostly based on Europe they wouldn't consider indigenous North American tribes. But that doesn't really explain why the Iroqouis/Haudenossaunee are in the game. In fact it debunks their claim.



I don't get the point of this either.

It is, but I'm not sure what your point is?

It was just a semantic statement on the choice of Zulu as an option from a thus far limited selection in the Industrial Era. With all due respect, and with my intent maybe being unclear, it was almost a throwaway commentary.

 

[Jkchart]

It was just a semantic statement on the choice of Zulu as an option from a thus far limited selection in the Industrial Era. With all due respect, and with my intent maybe being unclear, it was almost a throwaway commentary.

Fair, apologies on my end. We all have our preferences and thoughts on these games and I didn’t need to be as irritated as I was. I hope you can forgive me.

 

[Patine]

Fair, apologies on my end. We all have our preferences and thoughts on these games and I didn’t need to be as irritated as I was. I hope you can forgive me.

No problem. These things happen in discussions where the facial expression and tone of voice are unknown.

 

[Jkchart]

No problem. These things happen in discussions where the facial expression and tone of voice are unknown.

I think we can agree that regardless it will be very interesting to see how the Zulu play as compared to the rest of the industrial cultures

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think we can agree that regardless it will be very interesting to see how the Zulu play as compared to the rest of the industrial cultures

I have always felt that the Zulu in Industrial Era fall into the category of Special Case: Anti-Colonial Powers. Like the Lakotah Souix or Ethiopia, all three of which bested European-type 'colonial' powers in grossly asymmetrical warfare - but only briefly.
The real problem is that none of them are really competitive unless the gross historical imbalance of technological/military power between them and 'normal' Industrial Era factions is addressed in game. In Humankind's system, at least, the Zulu don't have to start drastically behind anybody else in industry or technology, since, presumably, you've had 4 previous Eras to Keep Pace, but that, in turn, removes the historical romance of the 'Washing of the Spears' since if you are playing a competitive game, you will be fielding rifles and artillery and not spears in the Industrial Era!

 

[8housesofelixir]

I have always felt that the Zulu in Industrial Era fall into the category of Special Case: Anti-Colonial Powers. Like the Lakotah, Souix or Ethiopia, all three of which bested European-type 'colonial' powers in grossly asymmetrical warfare - but only briefly.

Considering the Industrial Era was basically the Age of Empires - even "traditional" empires such as Qing and Ottomans had successfully secured their holdings during this era - then all the non-Empire picks will be, well, peoples and nations who hold back the expansion of an empire.

Moreover, Humankind is a game centered around Fame; holding back an expanding empire in their apex times is certainly Fame-worthy. (cf. Mapuche's presence in Civ VI and the origin of their unique anti-Golden Age ability)

In Humankind's system, at least, the Zulu don't have to start drastically behind anybody else in industry or technology, since, presumably, you've had 4 previous Eras to Keep Pace, but that, in turn, removes the historical romance of the 'Washing of the Spears' since if you are playing a competitive game, you will be fielding rifles and artillery and not spears in the Industrial Era!

IMHO that is the only downside of Humankind's era-based cultural picks: Many cultures don't really have a famous precursor (you can say, they didn't have much "Fame"), or their precursors didn't left sufficient records at all - imagine having a culture named "Proto-Bantus" and try to design EU/EQ for it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Considering the Industrial Era was basically the Age of Empires - even "traditional" empires such as Qing and Ottomans had successfully secured their holdings during this era - then all the non-Empire picks will be, well, peoples and nations who hold back the expansion of an empire.

Moreover, Humankind is a game centered around Fame; holding back an expanding empire in their apex times is certainly Fame-worthy. (cf. Mapuche's presence in Civ VI and the origin of their unique anti-Golden Age ability)

When I first heard about the Fame mechanic I posted about the fact that many of the historical battles that gained Fame, gained more of it for the losers than the winners: the Spartans at Thermopolye, Custer at Greasy Grass, and my favorite: the three Great Field Battles in Russian military history are Kulikovo Field, Borodino Field, and Prokhorovka Field, and none of the three was a tactical Russian victory!

IMHO that is the only downside of Humankind's era-based cultural picks: Many cultures don't really have a famous precursor (you can say, they didn't have much "Fame"), or their precursors didn't left sufficient records at all - imagine having a culture named "Proto-Bantus" and try to design EU/EQ for it.

While I am not really fond of the idea of a complete break between Factions by Era, it has the advantage that you don't have to hunt for historical antecedents: they are not required when you can go from Ancient Olmec to Classical Greek to Khmer to Ottoman to Zulu in a 'normal' game.

As for Bantu, they do have the advantage that linguistically at least, they were the first GUI users: they invented Point and Click.

 

[notNamed]

The point is that to Europeans, the conflict with the Sioux would be less relevant than the conflict with the Zulus in popular consciousness. (despite the same “win some battles v. more powerful adversary that won the overall war” concept in both)

There are decently well known series in Europe about the Apache (Winnetou and Old Shatterhand), the Sioux (Yakari, Asterix also visits a tribe of mostly-Sioux) and the Eskimos. Most people outside of UK know about the Zulu because of the same reason as Iroquois. Video games (Civ, AoE, EE, AC,...) and maybe an odd English movie/documentary if they happened to have seen it.

Though yeah. You are right the devs have zero reason to unevenly include N. American natives at the expense of the rest of Americas, or the rest of the world (unlike the folks making AoE3DE have done).

 

[Sostratus]

(unlike the folks making AoE3DE have done).

I mean they literally just remade the existing game. Which was based entirely on north and South America until ensemble contracted big huge games to do the Asian expansion. Although the fact that they are scrambling to hide from the word colonial in a game about colonization is pretty funny.

 

[notNamed]

I mean they literally just remade the existing game. Which was based entirely on north and South America until ensemble contracted big huge games to do the Asian expansion. Although the fact that they are scrambling to hide from the word colonial in a game about colonization is pretty funny.

I was referring to their destructive preferential treatment of the Sioux and Iroquois over Aztecs (actually, they crippled them ) and Incas. Anyway, that's not here nor there.
Just don't follow their example unless your point is to sour the perception of these folks worldwide among people who were at worst indifferent to them is what I'm saying.

 

[mitsho]

The Zulu are totally a British thing, entirely unknown outside until historical games came around such as well Civ. There would be other options in Africa of tribes resisting the Colonial Empire. They do deserve a place, I'm just saying that they are only the first option always due to English being a lingua franca and computer games starting in the US.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Zulu are totally a British thing, entirely unknown outside until historical games came around such as well Civ. There would be other options in Africa of tribes resisting the Colonial Empire. They do deserve a place, I'm just saying that they are only the first option always due to English being a lingua franca and computer games starting in the US.

Actually, the Zulu were introduced to the USA by the movie Zulu around 1964, and the book The Washing of the Spears, a popular account of the Zulu War at about the same time. Those, at least, were my introduction to them, and I remember watching the movie for the first time and not having a Clue what was going to happen next because I had never heard of Roarke's Drift or anything about the Zulu War.

 

[Elhoim]

Actually, the Zulu were introduced to the USA by the movie Zulu around 1964, and the book The Washing of the Spears, a popular account of the Zulu War at about the same time. Those, at least, were my introduction to them, and I remember watching the movie for the first time and not having a Clue what was going to happen next because I had never heard of Roarke's Drift or anything about the Zulu War.

I think I remember from when I was a kid here in Argentina the TV series "Shaka Zulu" (1986), which was from South Africa.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think I remember from when I was a kid here in Argentina the TV series "Shaka Zulu" (1986), which was from South Africa.

Another good example of "Zulu Exposure" in the USA: I remember reading about that series, but the US Army had me in Germany at the time and I couldn't get any American TV signal on which to watch it.
Point being the American as well as the British public has been exposed to Shaka and the Impis through several media presentations going back at least 50 years.