Hurry production forced labour

[screwtype]

I read somewhere that when you hurry production using forced labour the unhappiness penalty you get lasts only 20 turns. That doesn't seem too bad a penalty to me, can anyone confirm that the penalty is only 20 turns?

Also, is it 20 turns per citizen hurried to death, or 20 turns per hurried production? Because of course you can do 1 hurried production that kills more than 1 citizen.

As far as I can tell, each citizen hurried to death gives you a 10 turn hurry, so building a temple from scratch (30 turns in a corrupt city) would cost 3 dead citizens, I'd sure like to do that sometimes but will it give me a penalty of 60 turns of increased unhappiness for the 3 dead citizens or only 20 turns for the one hurry production? Or alternatively does it give me 3 x the unhappiness for 20 turns?

 

[Turner]

Yeah, it's modable in the editor, if I'm remembering correctly.

It's 20 turns per hurried production. So it can rack up pretty quickly if you keep using the whip.

And it's not a '10-turn' hurry...the rushed population gives x sheilds per citizen. I'm pretty sure it's 20 shields per citizen, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Trick of making most of forced labor.

Use it in totaly cotrrupted cities.

Use partial pop rushing:
When city has number of shields divisible by 10, switch to unit/building that need +20 shields more. Rush it and get 20 shields, and then switch back to whatever you built before.

Repeat if necessary.

Partial rushing is useful, since it is easier to maximize needed growth for future rushing and control unhappiness.

Very good for building harbor/temples in the wildness.

 

[screwtype]

Playerfanatic, I just took a look at your mod and it mentioned the Conquests Expansion pack. I haven't heard of this pack, what does it add to the original game, how much is it and where can I get it?

 

[screwtype]

Oops sorry my bad PF I thought you were referring to a Conquests expansion pack but of course you meant that Conquests itself is an expansion pack for Civ III.

I'm not sure I like all the changes in your mod but here's a couple of things I'd like to see in a mod. First of all the Scout unit is pretty useless IMO as he has no attack or defense factor and gets killed all the time by barbarian horsemen. Considering this guy is the "special unit" for some civs, I reckon he should have an attack and defence of 1 each like a warrior to make him really useful.

And BTW what use is the "explorer" unit that turns up in the middle period? By the time it turns up all the land is settled anyhow, has anyone ever bothered to actually build one of these units?

A more general gripe I have with the standard game is the slow movement, one square per turn for foot units gets awful tedious sometimes. I'd like to see a mod that gives foot units two squares per turn, and faster units, some of them anyhow, given a corresponding increase. I suspect that more mobile forces might make this game more unpredictable and exciting.

BTW thanks everyone for the tips on rushing production.

 

[player1 fanatic]

I'm not sure I like all the changes in your mod but here's a couple of things I'd like to see in a mod. First of all the Scout unit is pretty useless IMO as he has no attack or defense factor and gets killed all the time by barbarian horsemen. Considering this guy is the "special unit" for some civs, I reckon he should have an attack and defence of 1 each like a warrior to make him really useful.

I guess I should've have posted this in ps-mod thread, but anyway...

Main purpose of Scout is to explore the terrain. Giving his attack and defense would make Aztec Jaguar and Incan Scout pointless. Not to mention that such unit would be great for harrassing, like taking out enemy workers and pillage.

And don't forget that Exp civs don't get barabrians from huts.

And BTW what use is the "explorer" unit that turns up in the middle period? By the time it turns up all the land is settled anyhow, has anyone ever bothered to actually build one of these units?

And when we are with pillage, that is something with what explorers are very good.
They can go deep 6 tiles in enemy territory and take out important resource.

Optionally, you could just use it to explore enemy civ terrain, so you don't need to buy enemy world map.

A more general gripe I have with the standard game is the slow movement, one square per turn for foot units gets awful tedious sometimes. I'd like to see a mod that gives foot units two squares per turn, and faster units, some of them anyhow, given a corresponding increase. I suspect that more mobile forces might make this game more unpredictable and exciting.

This is a subjective matter.
When playing on standard and smaller maps, normal movemnt rate is ok.

Also, there could be balance problems when foot unit gets increased movement, since then it will be capable of retreating from combat like Horsemen.

 

[Akka]

Also, there could be balance problems when foot unit gets increased movement, since then it will be capable of retreating from combat like Horsemen.

Well, the problem would rather be that, as ALL units would have more than 1 movement point, they will ALL be considered "fast unit", and as such the "retreat" ability will simply be removed from the game in effect.

 

[screwtype]

Main purpose of Scout is to explore the terrain. Giving his attack and defense would make Aztec Jaguar and Incan Scout pointless. Not to mention that such unit would be great for harrassing, like taking out enemy workers and pillage.

No it wouldn't, because Jaguars can enslave defeated enemies, and Incan Scouts can treat hills and mountains as normal terrain whereas standard scouts can't. But admittedly it would make scouts more powerful than ordinary warriors, which is not really a desirable outcome.

Would it be possible to build a scout with a defense factor of 1 but no attack factor? I'm not sure how the combat system works, if you need an attack factor to defend yourself this wouldn't work, but otherwise it would be ideal because it would enable scouts to defend themselves but they wouldn't be able to initiate combat.

Personally I think Explorer civs are seriously underpowered and need a bigger incentive for playing them.

And when we are with pillage, that is something with what explorers are very good.
They can go deep 6 tiles in enemy territory and take out important resource.

Six tiles, how come? They only have a movement rating of two, don't they?

Also, there could be balance problems when foot unit gets increased movement, since then it will be capable of retreating from combat like Horsemen.

I thought the way retreat works is a unit can only retreat if it has a higher movement rating than its opponent. So if all foot units had a movement rating of 2, none of them would be able to retreat. However a unit with a MR of 3 would still be able to retreat from a foot unit with a MR of 2. Isn't that how it would work?

 

[screwtype]

PlayerFanatic - it works man! I just tried it. My first foray into rules editing

I created a scenario with a scout with an attack rating of 0 and a defence rating of 1. Sure enough, he can't attack enemy units - but he *can* defend himself from attacks! I tried to attack an enemy civ and got the "non combat units cannot attack" message, so I just declared war on the civ and his warrior attacked my scout, my scout won the battle and even got upgraded to veteran status!

Then I had another combat when some barbarians attacked and this time my scout lost the battle and got killed.

So that should be the scout's rating IMO - 0 attack, 1 defence.

 

[warpstorm]

Jags can't enslave.

I will disagree strongly about Expansionistic teams. I find that for my play style the expansionistic is one of the most powerful traits (second only to agricultural).

Explorers have treat all terrain as roads.

That's not how it works. All 'fast' units (move 2 or higher) can retreat (even from a faster unit).

 

[Yom]

I am 100% sure that fast units cannot retreat from other fast units. A Panzer can't retreat from a tank and a tank can't retreat from a panzer. I'm not sure about ATAR retreating from normal units, but my gut instinct tells me that they can't.

 

[Turner]

I was also under the impression that fast units can't escape from other fast units, regardless if they have more MP or not. Did this suddenly change?

 

[player1 fanatic]

As far as I know, fast unit can't retreat from other fast units.

 

[Samson]

Back on topic, some clarification about pop rushing.

It's 20 turns per hurried production. So it can rack up pretty quickly if you keep using the whip.

I am certain it is 1 person unhappy per pop killed by rushing. It takes 20 turns for the unhappiness to reduce by 1 person.

And it's not a '10-turn' hurry...the rushed population gives x sheilds per citizen. I'm pretty sure it's 20 shields per citizen, but I'm not 100% positive on that.

Yes, it is 20 shields per person. The number of people is then doubled if there is no sheilds in the production box.

Some examples to help demonstrate -

City 1 has 10 shields in its box, a settler could be rushed killing 1 pop, giving 1 unhappy person for 20 turns, then forgotten about. If it was to rush a 50 turn improvement (harbour if seafairing?) then it woudl kill 2 pop. giving 2 unhappy for 20 turns, then 1 unhappy from 20 - 40 turns, then forgotten about.

City 2 has no shields in its box. A spearman could be rushed killing 2 pop, and it would take the same ammount to rush a warrior.

 

[screwtype]

If only, suppose after rushing your harbour you only had 1 pop left. Would the 20 turns start counting down right away, or would the second unhappy pop only start counting down his 20 turns after he had been created?

 

[Samson]

If only, suppose after rushing your harbour you only had 1 pop left. Would the 20 turns start counting down right away, or would the second unhappy pop only start counting down his 20 turns after he had been created?

I am not totally convinced I understand the question. You know it is possible to have more unhappy faces than you do pop in a city? So in answer to your question, it would start counting straight away, and if you did not have any luxs or enough lux tax rate to give a happy face you would have to turn the pop into a tax collector or something.

I have capptured cities from the AI that were size 1 and had 3 unhappiness from pop rushing. They were usless for a good part of the game.

 

[screwtype]

I think you've answered my question ifonly. The unhappiness starts counting right away, even if there are less pop than possible unhappy faces, right?

Thanks v. much for the info on pop rushing. Very useful to know.

 

[screwtype]

Jags can't enslave

You're right warpstorm, sorry I was getting confused between Jag warriors and the Mayan Javelin thrower.

I will disagree strongly about Expansionistic teams. I find that for my play style the expansionistic is one of the most powerful traits (second only to agricultural).

All you get with expansionist is scouts - which are next to useless in my experience - and friendlier huts, don't you? Seems to me that expansionist civs just aren't worth the bother.

 

[Turner]

Yes, but for every friendly hut you get, that's one hut you don't pop barbs from. You're guaranteed to have a map, gold, tech, warrior/horsemen, settler or city out of it.

Even one city early is a gamebreaker.

 

[player1 fanatic]

One important thing I missed.
You can never "sacrifice" more people then half population in city.

So if you want Harbor NOW in 4pop city, use partial rush strategy I explained before.